Forgotten Voices of the great war

[Guest TRACEY123]

I thought i would just let the forum know that i have just bought this book and the a book with the same title for the second world war. They are being sold as a double pack for the unbeleivable price of £3.73 at TESCO.

I have already started reading the one and so far it is brilliant, i am now reading two books on the Great War!!!!

[spike10764]

Part way through reading this myself, it's a very interesting read, especially some of the insights into the more unusual events.

An NCO of the old school reported as having fired on two miners, who had slouched by him and not responded to his shout. The very peculiar nature of a citizen army, mixed with a professional one.

[Patrick H]

Yes Ive read this book, very intense and moving at times.

Patrick

[burlington]

I have both the WW1 book and the CDs.

I tihnk the CDs give a more realistic and moving picture as they are a 'living' testimony rather a written one.

[ypres1418]

Tracey,

welcome to club!

be warned though, it is a mine field out there for books, I should know I need a new bookcase again! they are overflowing to the extreme.

Mandy

[Dave_59]

where might one obtain the CD's

thanks

dave

[burlington]

Dave

Amazon is the cheapest. IWM also sells them and any bookseller will get them for you.

There are 4 sets each of 3 CDs. Awesome as you listen to real voices of men and women who were not old when they were recorded.

Now one also for WW2.

[LizM]

Tracy

I will let Max know that you are enjoying both his books.

He did a lot of research into them

He has a new book out in October called "The Last Post" in which he has interviewed the last remaining survivors of WW1 and has just been to see the last French one.

I am looking forward to reading this book.

Liz

[Soren]

Pals,

On the same note, 'Forgotten Voices of the Second World War' @ £3.73 see below:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t=0#entry263047

Soren

[J Banning]

Sorry to be a dissenting voice here but I was very disappointed by Max Arthur’s 'Forgotten Voices of the Great War'.

I thought his short histories of each year, which preceded the interviews, were amateurish and could have done with more explanation. Whilst I am aware that the vast majority of the book necessarily focuses on the interviews, I was disappointed by the sparseness of knowledge or explanation in each of these years ‘short history’. I saw Max Arthur speak at a literary festival a couple of years ago and held the same opinion then. Very good at self publicity and marketing but not, in the strictest sense, a military or oral historian.

However, Max Arthur should be congratulated on using the catalogue of IWM taped interviews. These are not so easily accessible and this book and subsequent editions (such as 'Forgotten Voices of the Second World War') have opened up these fascinating testimonies to the general public. However, I would recommend any Martin Middlebrook, Lyn Macdonald, Richard van Emden or Peter Hart/Nigel Steel book over this. They have been doing this sort of stuff for years and years and it shows. Max Arthur has joined the game late and I just don’t see the same knowledge and understanding in his works. I may borrow a copy of 'Forgotten Voices of the Second World War' from a library, but only for the testimonies.

His publishers have done a fantastic job of pushing his work and I am guessing his book sales are soaring. But I do laugh when I see him described as ‘Britain’s premier oral historian’. The vast majority of the interviews he used were gathered by Peter Hart at the IWM and he has just transcribed and copied large chunks. Very clever of him and I wish him the best of luck, but in my opinion he is far from the best oral or military historian out there.

One thing I did notice is that although the book claims to use solely oral transcripts from the IWM sound archive, the text from Lt Charles Carrington (p.135) bears an uncanny resemblance to that in his memoirs ‘Soldier From The Wars Returning’ from page 230. Whilst not word for word I would be amazed if his spoken testimony was so uncannily similar to his written text. Only the author knows for sure but next time I am at the IWM I may pop in and see how closely the interview matches the text in ‘Forgotten Voices’. Was particularly amused to see that Carrington’s testimony is included in the Chapter on 1916 when Carrington quite clearly is talking about the training of boys in 1918. Artistic licence perhaps?! If that is one example, are there others?

As for Sir Martin Gilbert’s ‘Introduction’, it looks like he had to get it to the publishers in five minutes and just wrote a list! I would have expected more from such a distinguished historian.

Apologies to those who enjoyed it. ‘Tis only my opinion and as far as I am aware, this forum is open to both positive and negative comments.

May get some in agreement but nevertheless I am preparing to be shot down in flames…..

[Paul Hodges]

May get some in agreement but nevertheless I am preparing to be shot down in flames…..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll support a bit. I think it is Richard Holmes who rather too condescendingly but nonetheless amusingly refers to this sort of stuff as 'the historian as copy typist'.

As I think I've said here before, fussy blighter that I am, it is the title that really angers me. 'Forgotten Voices' - NO! 'Carefully recorded, archived, catalogued and preserved Voices' it should be - thanks to Peter Hart and all the IWM staff.

By the way - if I had the time and inclination, I'd rush and do the same thing for the Liddle Archive at Leeds which matches the IWM for quality and is not far off for size. 10% of all profits please...

[spike10764]

I'll support a bit. I think it is Richard Holmes who rather too condescendingly but nonetheless amusingly refers to this sort of stuff as 'the historian as copy typist'.

As I think I've said here before, fussy blighter that I am, it is the title that really angers me. 'Forgotten Voices' - NO! 'Carefully recorded, archived, catalogued and preserved Voices' it should be - thanks to Peter Hart and all the IWM staff.

By the way - if I had the time and inclination, I'd rush and do the same thing for the Liddle Archive at Leeds which matches the IWM for quality and is not far off for size. 10% of all profits please...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, I see where you and Ralph are coming from. I'm just glad someone took the time to get the carefully recorded and archived Voices into a book.

I'd buy your(prospective??) book, garnered from the Liddle Collection, so maybe it's worth the time and effort- you never know

[Guest edwinwrg4751]

Pals,

On the same note, 'Forgotten Voices of the Second World War' @ £3.73 see below:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t=0#entry263047

Soren

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

havent yet read the book but i have finished listening to the tapes for the third time.i thought the lads in the war were all heroes,

edwin

[J Banning]

Have just had another look at Max Arthur’s 'Forgotten Voices of the Great War' for some testimonies and was highly amused to read the Acknowledgements on pages vi & vii.

In this piece he does the usual, thanking all those that helped him. What amused me so much was that he admitted that Peter Hart did the interviews, Lorraine Lee typed the transcripts, William Skidelsky and Joshua Levine did the research and Ruth Cowen transcribed many of the tapes. Similarly the following people gave him advice and read through his book; Peter Hart, Brigadier Sebastian Roberts, Malcolm Brown and Sir Martin Gilbert.

That seems to have covered all bases. Consequently, can anyone else who has this book actually tell me what part of this book Max Arthur actually worked on?! A book written by committee rather than by Max Arthur himself seems a lot more accurate description. And before I get some people pointing an accusatory finger that I have some personal vendetta against the author – I don’t. I am concerned however that acclaim is being heaped on someone who does not appear to really warrant it. Anyway, I am sure he can take a bit of criticism as he sits counting his royalty cheques.

Taking cover now....

[Steven Broomfield]

This has cropped up elsewhere. I actually found the book quite disappointing: there was little idea of chronology, with quotes scattered around. In addition, I was irritated by mistakes - for example, on page 110, an entry is by someone from the "6th Northumberland Hussars", and on page 102, the "1/8th Queen's Royal West Surrey regiment". Neither existed. If such straightforward errors, easily checked, are allowed to appear, what else is wrong?

I often wonder with these cut and paste jobs what level of research is done actually to check what is said. I know that war must be pretty memorable, but I also know that age playse tricks (mine does), and soldiers frequently know beggar all about what is happening to them.

I don't want to sound too negative (though I probably do), but I'm really glad my copy was a gift and I didn't part with hard-earned cash to buy it.

It's OK, but I don't think it adds to the canon of knowledge, and there are a lot of much better books out there.

Still, for under a fiver, I guess I'd give it a go.

[Soren]

I found 'A War in Words' very readable........ perhaps Pal's should opt for that one instead.

[Bob Mitchell]

I've seen the IWM interviews on tape directly juxtaposed with the exact referenced extracts from Forgotten Voices (Arthur lifted many from aired TV interviews!). Unfortunately Arthur doesn't even manage to quote correctly. The whole book is cut and edited to adapt to what sells the most books. You add that to the aforementioned mistakes and you don't get a very good end product. As has previously been said, it's been brilliantly published. Shame it's awful history. I can't speak for FV of 2nd WW though.

Sorry, I'd reference the exact points where he misquotes but my notes are tucked away in one of my many bags atm I'll try to hunt them down and find them if anyone is seriously interested.

[salesie]

My kids presented this book to me (with others) a couple of Christmasses ago, and, although I don't have a problem with something that's designed to sell per se, I do like a book that enthralls me right up to the last page; this one didn't.

I found the book's concept fascinating, and initially it didn't disappoint, but, by halfway, the book's errors, the sometimes out of context references and the shallowness of the quotes/anecdotes decimated my attention span. I put the book down with a promise to return; I've yet to fulfill that promise after nearly two years.

Cheers - salesie.

[Borden Battery]

The following quotation is purported to have been made by a Private Alfred Bromfield to Max Arthur in Search of the Past. Can anyone confirm this is the correct and complete quotation and the speaker name is correctly referenced? I don't have access to the book or cd here in Canada.

Regards

Borden Battery

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Private Alfred Bromfield 2nd Battalion, Lancashire Regiment

Then we saw coming towards us the French Zouaves. They were in blue coats and red pants and caps and it was a revelation to us, we hadn’t seen anything but khaki and drab uniforms. They were rushing toward us, half staggering, and we wondered what was the matter. They were running away from the Germans. We tried to rally them but they wouldn’t stay. Then we got orders to shoot them down, which we did. We turned around and shot them as they were running away.

Then, as we looked further away we saw this green cloud come slowly across the terrain. It was the first gas that anybody had seen or heard of, and one of our boys, evidently a chemist, said, “If you urinate on your handkerchiefs it will save your lungs, anyway”. So most of us did that, and we tied these handkerchiefs, plus pieces of putty or anything else we could find, around our faces, and it did save us from being gassed. There were masses of Germans behind this gas cloud, we could see their grey uniforms, and there we were, helpless.

[Raster Scanning]

I was irritated by mistakes - for example, on page 110, an entry is by someone from the "6th Northumberland Hussars", and on page 102, the "1/8th Queen's Royal West Surrey regiment". Neither existed. If such straightforward errors, easily checked, are allowed to appear, what else is wrong?

Steven Broomfield

Ditto

Quotes by Lt Tom Adlam of the 7th Beds and Herts Rgt! and Pte W A Quinton, Bedfordshire Fusiliers! Fundamental mistakes that had me wondering if I could trust any of the information.

[J Banning]

Glad it isn't just me who thinks like this. The author clearly knows nothing about WW1 and this shines through in this book. Still amazes me that he can manage to sell his books when they are so patently awful.

So many better reads out there - choose one of them, not this!

[Peter Bennett]

Whether Mr Arthur transcribed himself or used others, there were errors in interpreting regional accents.

When reading "Forgotten Voices" I was particularly touched by the quotes of (sic) Kitty Eckersley and her story of her Husband Percy Morton who was killed. I made a visit to the only Percy Morton listed in the CWGC, buried at Voormeleeze nr Ypres.

One day whilst passing St Cross's Church in Clayton, Manchester I noticed a War Memorial and thought to look for Percy. His correct surname was MORTER, and the CWGC list him on the Thiepval Memorial, killed on 7th July 1916. "Kitty"s actual Christian name was KATIE and the place she went to work was AUDENSHAW, not "Ardenshaw"

Those with Manchester accents will appreciate the phonetics.

Percy hailed from Derby and has relatives living to this day.

[FAAAEd]

However, I would recommend any Martin Middlebrook, Lyn Macdonald, Richard van Emden or Peter Hart/Nigel Steel book over this.

Case in point; 'Britain's Last Tommies' by Richard van Emden has just been republished in paperback, ISBN 0-349-12012-9.

There is a picture of Henry Allingham with wife-to-be Dorothy within, and I must search out a source for Patch's Pride cider.

I like this book, the introduction is both celebratory and sensitive.