why are they missing

[bernardmcilwaine]

on 17-9-1914 the 1st northants were engaged in a scrap near the chemin de dams rd,O.C capt robert burton parker was killed while leading a bayonet charge,shortly afterwards the germans surrendered,putting up white flags,capt john ardkeen savage went out to negotiate the surrender with 2ndLt cosmo george gordon,after successfully doing so,he and the Lt were returning to there lines when all of a sudden the germans changed their minds and opened up,killing capt savage and mortally wounding 2ndLt gordon,after turning a MG and rifle fire on the enemy,they decided they did want to surrender,a MG did the negotiating this time,capt e j needham buried the german dead and his own dead,there was only one german survivor from all this,capt needham had time to do all this burial work unmolested by the lack of any more enemy in that area,so how come capts savage+parker are missing,gordon died shortly after,he has a grave,but why not the other two,bernard

[Paul Johnson]

Bernard,

The area was the scene of terrible fighting in the First World War.

As these men were killed so early in the war it is likely that their graves were disturbed by the effects of later fighting, in particular heavy shelling. This was often the case along some parts of the Western Front, despite the fact that burial sites were recorded the bodies were simply unearthed and destroyed by shell fire.

Hope this helps.

PAUL JOHNSON

[bernardmcilwaine]

Bernard,

The area was the scene of terrible fighting in the First World War.

As these men were killed so early in the war it is likely that their graves were disturbed by the effects of later fighting, in particular heavy shelling. This was often the case along some parts of the Western Front, despite the fact that burial sites were recorded the bodies were simply unearthed and destroyed by shell fire.

Hope this helps.

PAUL JOHNSON

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thanks paul,but why not 2ndLt gordons body,he died of wounds before reaching an aid post,his would have been lost as well,bernard

[Tom Morgan]

Hi Bernard!!

It's possible that all three of them have graves. After all, "missing" doesn't mean that no body was found. It means that no identification could be made. 2/Lieut. Gordon is buried in Vailly British Cemetery, and this cemetery wasn't started until after the Armistice - 4 years after the soldiers died. (Most of the graves in the cemetery are of 1914 casualties, I believe.) So 2/Lieut. Gordon's grave must have survived as an identifiable burial for four years before being moved to Vailly. It's possible that the graves of Capt. Savage and Capt. Parker were also found and brought into the cemetery, but after 4 years there could be a hundred reasons why they couldn't be identified. Just under half of the graves in the cemetery are unidentified and there are also 40 special memorials naming soldiers known or believed to be buried in the cemetery, so When the cemetery was made after the Armistice, there were obviously lots of unidentified 1914 burials found - just over 300.

Tom

[Guest]

thanks paul,but why not 2ndLt gordons body,he died of wounds before reaching an aid post,his would have been lost as well,bernard

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It could be an extremely random process. One grave could be totally lost, while another only feet away might be relatively undisturbed, at least so that the body was not destroyed, or identification details lost.

[Paul Johnson]

Bernard,

I think Tom & Angie have answered your question, so I won't go over it again.

If you need anymore help then please let me know.

Regards

PAUL J

[bernardmcilwaine]

Bernard,

I think Tom & Angie have answered your question, so I won't go over it again.

If you need anymore help then please let me know.

Regards

PAUL J

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paul,angie,tom many thanks,bernard

[kinnethmont]

Bernard

I was intrigued that you were relating details of a local Aberdeenshire man, 2nd Lt CG Gordon. Details at

Gartly War Memorial

The White Flag Incident was recorded insome detail in an article by Capt Needham. Some of these vary from those you give:

It was Capt J A Savage and Lt J.H.S. Dimmer who went out to speak to the Germans as both could speak the language. They were in discussion for about five minutes. When they were half way back across no mans land the Germans opened fire whilst the white flags were still raised. Savage was hit in the back and dropped dead. Dimmer threw himself to the ground and crawled back to his lines.

During this time Capt Needham and Cosmo Gordon were kneeling and observing the scene. When fire was opened on Savage and Dimmer, Gordon was hit in the stomach and writhed about on the ground in agony saying that he was going to die.

Gordon was later taken away on a stretcher. His batman took his sword after Gordon had Needham promise that he would make sure his sword was returned to his family.

Needham writes that, as he had said he would, Cosmo Gordon died at a CCS next day and was buried there.

I recently obtained a map reference for Lt Gordon's original burial place from CWGC. The reference appears not to tie with maps known to the " map expents " on this Forum.

If you can advise any more I would be interested.

I attach a photograph of Lt Gordon and a photograph of his grave at Vailly. This was taken by Forum member Peter Bebb for me only a few weeks ago.

thanks paul,but why not 2ndLt gordons body,he died of wounds before reaching an aid post,his would have been lost as well,bernard

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