HMS New Zealand

[adrianjohn]

I've just come across this old postcard - thought it might be of interest, especially to any Kiwis out there.

The Battle Cruiser New Zealand was presented to the British Navy by the people of New Zealand. She was built in Glasgow and commissioned in 1912.

Some Tech Spec: Displacement 18800 tonnes; length 555 ft (180 metres); beam 80 ft (25 metres); 26 1/2 ft draught (9 metres). Coal Fired boilers and direct drive steam turbines; 44,000 hp, four propellers. Armament was eight 12" guns, fourteen 4" guns, two 3" AA and two 21" torpedo tubes. Her speed was 26 knots and she carried a war complement of 1080. Another interesting thing: a flying off deck was installed in 1917.

She saw service in three major actions and was later Lord Jellicoe's flagship for his tour of the Dominions in 1919.

Broken up in 1922, two of her 4" guns form part of the war memorial in Auckland.

Hope this interests someone!

adrian

[per ardua per mare per terram]

That looks more like the trawler HMS NZ to me, there are no 12inch guns for a start.

[Horace Bachelor]

It's a rear view of New Zealand. The picture is taken from a low angle hiding the rear turret from view. Here's a rear 3/4 view of sister ship Indefatigable.

Nice pic Adrian. Thanks for sharing it.

[adrianjohn]

It's a rear view of New Zealand. The picture is taken from a low angle hiding the rear turret from view. Here's a rear 3/4 view of sister ship Indefatigable.

Nice pic Adrian. Thanks for sharing it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your comments - I felt a bit put down by Per ardua

I took most of the information from the text on the back of the postcard, the rest I searched for. There was also a sister ship, HMAS Australia.

cheers. adrian

[ionia]

Coal Fired boilers and direct drive steam turbines; 44,000 hp, four propellers. Armament was eight 12" guns, fourteen 4" guns, two 3" AA and two 21" torpedo tubes. Her speed was 26 knots and she carried a war complement of 1080.

adrian]

A minor quibble. The NEW ZEALAND was armed with three 18" torpedo tubes, one of which (the stern tube) was removed during the war. Battlecruisers did not carry the 21" tubes until the LION class. The AUSTRALIA and NEW ZEALAND were not full sisters of the INDEFATIGABLE as the arrangement of their armour differed. The ships werre completed with a secondary armament of 16 x 4" LA guns but this varied during and after the war as the requirement for anti-aircraft protection and deck armour increased.

[Adrian Roberts]

Adrianjohn

A fascinating contemporary image, quite possibly pre-WW1 (the White Ensign is at the peacetime position); thanks for sharing it.

I can see where Per Ardua, who is normally very helpful, was coming from: the picture is from an unusual angle and it also had me guessing until I saw Horace's photo. This is uncannily similar: the boat davits are at exactly the same angle, and the aft gun turret would not be visible from water level astern.

Four of the 12" guns were in twin turrets on either side; a not uncommon feature in ships of that age, but in a battle cruiser with thinner armour than a battleship, these side (beam) turrets were very vulnerable to shells penetrating the side armour and the part of the turret below deck (the barbette). Almost certainly this was a major factor in the loss of Indefatigable and two other battlecruisers at Jutland.

Adrian

(looks like there are now three Adrian's on this site!)

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Sorry to read you feel put down I wasn’t trying to, whatever I thought it looked like I should have complemented you for a great find. Looking at it more I’m changing my mind and as it is lunchtime I will go and eat humble pie.

Apart from pleading insanity, in my defence the post card doesn’t flatter the great ship to have her looking more like a trawler! She looks short and squat, but I can now make out 3 funnels and comparing the 2 shots makes it easier to see the features.

[adrianjohn]

Sorry to read you feel put down I wasn’t trying to, whatever I thought it looked like I should have complemented you for a great find. Looking at it more I’m changing my mind and as it is lunchtime I will go and eat humble pie.

Apart from pleading insanity, in my defence the post card doesn’t flatter the great ship to have her looking more like a trawler! She looks short and squat, but I can now make out 3 funnels and comparing the 2 shots makes it easier to see the features.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks! - No permanent damage done, just a slight dent in the armour plating. Easily repaired. Hope you managed to enjoy lunch - with or without the humbles.

cheers. adrian

[michaeldr]

Thanks Adrian & HB for the great pictures

I have to confess that the unusual angle threw me too at first

Jane’s does not give a plan for this ship but instead offers those for the ‘Invincible class’ with the caveat

“Design is generally an enlarged Invincible. [Jane’s give Invincible’s length as over all 567 feet and New Zealand’s length as over all 590 feet] Special feature is that the amidships guns are further apart in order to permit of fairly free use on either broadside. Better sea-boats than Invincibles.”

Regards

Michael D.R.

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

This was an RN capital ship paid for and presented to Britain as a gesture of patriotism and loyalty to the Crown.

The final cost was (2.3 million pounds)

N.Z finally repaid the interest on the sum in 1944, 21 years after the ship was scrapped.

Thats allot of money to pay for naval guns

Nice picture by the way.

[ionia]

This was an RN capital ship paid for and presented to Britain as a gesture of patriotism and loyalty to the Crown.

The final cost was (2.3 million pounds)

N.Z finally repaid the interest on the sum in 1944, 21 years after the ship was scrapped.

Thats allot of money to pay for naval guns

Nice picture by the way.

Perhaps worth the money in another way. She was a most fortunate ship, coming through the battles of Dogger Bank and Jutland without a casualty.

Undoubtably this was in consequence of the wearing by her Captain of a Maori tiki and piu piu when the ship was in action. She also had a special wheel of New Zealand wood with "Ake. Ake, Ake, Kia Kaha" carved into it. This wheel was shipped in the conning tower and always used to steer the ship in battle.

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

HMS New Zealand on display in Auckland Harbor 1913

[kin47]

Hello

NEW ZEALAND only lost 20 crew members during the war and immediately after.

Six to drowning incidents and the other 14 to illness. None to contact with enemy.

BURNARD FRANCIS O/SIGNALMAN J 20524 23/02/15 ILLNESS

COBB BERNARD F. A.B. J 8194 (Ply) 08/01/16 DROWNING

EDWARDS SAMUEL J.CHIEF STOKER 175834 29/04/15 ILLNESS

FAWCUS VICTOR C.B. MIDSHIPMAN 05/04/19 ILLNESS

FREEMAN THOMAS H. STOKER 1c K 8956 12/11/14 DROWNING

GOOD JAMES A. PRIVATE, RMLI 9300 (Ply) 04/11/14 ILLNESS

GRAY ALEXANDER GUNNER, RMA RMA 13122 29/03/20 ILLNESS

HIGGINS JAMES STOKER 2c SS 114640 18/08/14 ILLNESS

HULANCE JOSEPH J. STOKER 2c K 238036 01/02/16 ILLNESS

HUMPAGE WILLIAM T. OFFICERS' COOK 1c L 6176 29/12/18 ILLNESS

HYNES JAMES F. L/SEAMAN J 26607 05/12/19 ILLNESS

ISITT ROBERT CHIEF CARPENTER 10/12/16 ILLNESS

JACQUES FREDERICK STOKER 1c 295765 10/05/19 ILLNESS

MURRAY ARCHIBALD O.D. J 82097 (Dev) 24/10/19 DROWNING

O'GRADY THOMAS STOKER, RNR S 4211 03/03/15 ILLNESS

RENNIE ANDREW A.B. J 13182 01/04/19 DROWNING

ROWSE AARON C. STOKER 1c 296287 30/12/18 ILLNESS

SMITH EDWIN PRIVATE, RMLI 3885 (Ply) 09/07/15 ILLNESS

THORNE SYDNEY R.REGULATING P.O. 216932 19/01/20 DROWNING

WHITECHURCH ARTHUR F. A.B. J 13518 (Dev) 07/11/17 DROWNING

Thanks

don

[adrianjohn]

Fabulous picture KIA KAAHA - thanks for that.

I wonder what illnesses took so many of the crew? Was this unusual at that period?

adrian

[kin47]

Hello

The six illnesses of the 1918-1920 period were the Spanish influenza. The rest were various. The others did not constitute a disportionate number for the size of the crew.

don

[adrianjohn]

Hello

The six illnesses of the 1918-1920 period were the Spanish influenza.  The rest were various.  The others did not constitute a disportionate number for the size of the crew.

don

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did wonder - it was pandemic at that time, claiming over 20 million victims world-wide.

adrian

[pompeyrodney]

Hi All

Does anyone have any details of the drowning incidents, I am intrigued how in the normal course of events 6 men could be drowned when none were actually lost in action to the enemy. Did they fall over the side or perhaps they were swept away in rough seas. I guess they could have been lost in accidents involving the ships boats, please enlighten me everyone.

Cheers

Julian

[Guest]

Thanks for your comments - I felt a bit put down by Per ardua

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The unusual perspective threw me, but on closer inspection things started to fall into place. For instance, it would be a funny trawler which had two heavy tripod masts, a design feature almost unique to British designed battle cruisers at that time. And it would be a Union Jack flown at the bow, not a White Ensign, which is correctly shown at the stern (peacetime position as was stated).

It is sometimes worth spending a bit of time on unusual pictures to work out what you are seeing.

Incidentally, the captain of HMS New Zealand wore a Maori kilt and necklace at Jutland. These had been given to the ship on a visit to New Zealand in 1913 and the captain had been told that if worn in battle no harm would come to the ship. As it happens, although hit once by a heavy German shell, New Zealand was the only one of Beattie's battle cruiser squadron not to suffer cignificant casulties at Jutland.

[Horace Bachelor]

Here's another photo of New Zealand.

The hit she sustained at Jutland was on the side of Y turret and caused no significant damage, the turret remaining operative. It would probably have been a glancing blow as an 11" shell was more than capable of piercing 7" of armour. A lucky ship indeed.

Rich.

[michaeldr]

Quotes -

Ionia: She was a most fortunate ship, coming through the battles of Dogger Bank and Jutland without a casualty.

Undoubtably this was in consequence of the wearing by her Captain of a Maori tiki and piu piu when the ship was in action. She also had a special wheel of New Zealand wood with "Ake. Ake, Ake, Kia Kaha" carved into it. This wheel was shipped in the conning tower and always used to steer the ship in battle.

Angie999: Incidentally, the captain of HMS New Zealand wore a Maori kilt and necklace at Jutland. These had been given to the ship on a visit to New Zealand in 1913 and the captain had been told that if worn in battle no harm would come to the ship. As it happens, although hit once by a heavy German shell, New Zealand was the only one of Beattie's battle cruiser squadron not to suffer cignificant casulties at Jutland.

HB: A lucky ship indeed.

per Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty’s report of 19th June 1916, the New Zealand’s captain at Jutland was Captain John F. E. Green

and the Naval Who’s Who has

“he commanded and fought his ship ‘with great skill and gallantry’; appointed C.B. for these services, and decorated Officer of the Legion of Honour by the President of the French Republic.”

Regards

Michael D.R.

ps: Captain Green’s career up to Jutland is given as

‘Midshipman of Achilles during Egyptian war, 1882 (Egyptian Medal, Khedive’s Bronze Star); mentioned in despatches by Sir E. H. Seymour for services in China, 190, when Commander of Pigmy.’

Edited 24 May , 2005 by michaeldr

[Arthur]

NZ.bmpHi,

Hopefully! Here is a copy of HMS New Zealand's 'Unoffical Badge'.

Regards

Arthur

[per ardua per mare per terram]

For instance, it would be a funny trawler which had two heavy tripod masts...It is sometimes worth spending a bit of time on unusual pictures to work out what you are seeing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am contrite and I have dined on humble pie. It will teach me to look harder in future.

[Guest]

I am contrite and I have dined on humble pie. It will teach me to look harder in future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh no need to go that far. It nearly had me fooled too.

[adrianjohn]

NZ.bmpHi,

  Hopefully! Here is a copy of HMS New Zealand's 'Unoffical Badge'.

Regards

Arthur

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Arthur: Thanks for this. Why would it be the 'unofficial' badge?

adrian

[Arthur]

Adrian,

Excerpt taken from Ship's Badge Committee Meeting on the 30th April 1919. [The A-Z of Royal Naval Ship's Badges Vol 2. by B. J. Wilkinson, T. P. Stoppard and D. Taylor.]:

It was agreed that ships be allowed to make their own badges, provided that they work from designs approved by the Ship's Badge Committee and the Controller and that tracings of approved designs be sent to the ships applying. [Manufacture of offical badges had still not commenced at this date.] It was also agreed that ships applying for offical badges be given them immediately after ships building and that no provisional designs were to be sent out. [The Commanding Officer of a ship with an existing unoffical badge could, if he so wished, retain it for the duration of the ship's commission, provided that it conformed to the guidelines of the Committee. An Officer appointed to commission a ship with an existing unoffical badge could also retain it and this explains why HMS VANOC, an Admiralty 'V' Class Destroyer served from 1919-1945 without ever being granted an offical badge, the only ship of her class to do this.]

Regards

Arthur