JH SEABROOK

[TD60]

Hello

I wonder why the insign on the grave is not the same as indicated by CWGC

(Intelligence Corps as main unit.) and also what were the tasks of

such an engineer in intelligence corps in 1914.

Was his tasks to listen the germans wireless exchanges or something like that ?

If yes I suppose he had a hard work during those very critical days of the Battle of the Marne

Regards

SEABROOK, JAMES HERBERT Second Lieutenant Intelligence Corps 10/09/1914 29 South-West corner.

SWORD, JAMES HUBERT Lieutenant 4th (Queen's Own) Hussars 10/09/1914 22 South-West corner.

SEABROOK, JAMES HERBERT

Initials: J H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment: Intelligence Corps

Secondary Regiment: Royal Engineers

Secondary Unit Text: 5th Signal Troop, (attd. 5th Cavalry Bde.)

Age: 29

Date of Death: 10/09/1914

[Jock Bruce]

There was no 'Intelligence Corps' in WW1, in the sense of something having a seperate existence in the Corps Warrant - so there is no Int Corps badge that could be displayed on the gravestone and no corps to which an officer could be transfered from his original one. Each theatre formed its own 'intelligence corps'. In F&F/Italy, ORs were eventually treated as belonging to something called 10 ( Royal Fusiliers, something totally different from the 'real' 10 RF. But there was no similar arrangement for officers.

In the case of the BEF there were a number of officers who had been earmarked for intelligence duties in mobilisation planning and went out in Aug '14. This chap may be one such.

The equation of RE Signal Service/intelligence/intercept is certainly a valid theory. The BEF was intercepting German radio mesages from very early in the war.

There is PRO file for this guy - I hope to be able to add some details tomorrow night.

Jock

[TD60]

Many thanks for your comment

There was no 'Intelligence Corps' in WW1, in the sense of something having a seperate existence in the Corps Warrant - so there is no Int Corps badge that could be displayed on the gravestone and no corps to which an officer could be transfered from his original one. 

Jock

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not 100% sure ; see this grave dated one month later:

Therefore there is sometimes graves with intelligence corps badge.

I know this is the very general for british army.

So why there is one badge in one case and another for the other grave.

What is the philosophy behind ?

The equation of RE Signal Service/intelligence/intercept is certainly a valid theory.  The BEF was intercepting German radio mesages from very early in the war. 

There is PRO file for this guy - I hope to be able to add some details tomorrow night.

Jock

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks again and I am interested by those information.

Kind regards

[bernardmcilwaine]

Many thanks for your comment

Not 100% sure ; see this grave dated one month later:

Therefore there is sometimes graves with intelligence corps badge.

I know this is the very general for british army.

So why there is one badge in one case and another for the other grave.

What is the philosophy behind ?

Thanks again and I am interested by those information.

Kind regards

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that looks like a general service badge not intelligence corps

[Jock Bruce]

Some officers employed on intelligence duties were commissioned on the 'Special List' hence the GS badge - there was nothing else they could wear or which could be used on their gravestone. Sang is described as 'Special List, New Armies' in ODGW.

There is a TNA file for an A SANG - if this is the same man I will verify his details.

Jock

[Terry Denham]

No specific Intelligence Corps badge existed in WW1. As these men appear to be attached from other units, their parent unit badge would be used.

I am no expert on the Corps but the MoD site states that the Corps was formed in 1914 (other sources give 05.08.14) and disbanded after WW1 being reformed for WW2.

CWGC records seven WW1 officers as being allocated to the Intelligence Corps.

[Jock Bruce]

Both files, like those of many deceased officers, contains little military detail, being mostly concerned with effects, debts, wills ,etc. But, supplemented with info from the census, Gazette, etc we do know something more about these men

John Herbert SEABROOK

Born 1883 at Chelmsford, son of William Seabrook, fruit grocer. In 1901 census living at Chelmsford, and himself described as fruit grocer.

Commissioned as Temp 2/Lt RE 6 Aug 14.

To France Aug 14, no day given – MIC describes him as 2/Lt 5 Signal Troop, RE (‘when decoration earned’) and 2/Lt 5 Cav Bde, Intell Corps (‘present situation’). 14 Star off ‘Intelligence and Interpreters’ roll, where he is described as Intel Corps (RE).

This information sent to his family -

‘All 2/Lt Seabrook’s kit was on his motor cycle with him and was taken by the enemy before his body was recovered. A belt containing twelve pounds and some letters were found under his clothes and sent to his mother by Capt Baikie of 5th Signal Troop, Royal Engineers.’

Alfred Joseph Frederick SANG

Born c 1876 at Paris. Married in London 1899, and ‘official’ address for Army purposes is in Golders Green. Widow living in New York post-war.

Commissioned as Temp 2/Lt Special List 6 Aug 14.

To France 15 Aug 14,- MIC describes him as 2/Lt Intel Corps. 14 Star off ‘Intelligence and Interpreters’ roll, where he is described as Intel Corps.

Died at ‘Hospital No. 8, Rouen, France’ 2 Oct 14 from wounds received on 30 Aug 14.

----------------------------------------------

Some of this raises more questions than it answers.

Sang has a cosmopolitan air about him, which may explain him being involved in intelligence duties.

Seabrook is less easy to explain – I wonder what he did in the time between 1901 and 1914 that made him a candidate? Perhaps a keen radio amateur, maybe languages learnt in the fruit trade, maybe he got out of the fruit trade and did something else ? Perhaps simply the ability to ride a motorbike. Many of the things lumped under intelligence were more akin to scouting, reconnaissance, liaison, etc than what we imagine intelligence means – a hangover from the Boer War. But why RE and not Special List? The Sappers is a fussy lot – this may suggest some particular skill. 5 Cav Bde war diary may shed some light on what he was doing.

Somewhere I have a history of the Int Corps (a gift by a kind person on this forum) – I’ll try to dig a bit more.

But to return to the original point – although the BEF’s intelligence corps was more structured than those in other theatres, with a commandant, an adjutant and, eventually, a table of organisation, it still wasn’t a ‘corps’ in the proper administrative sense of the term, hence no capbadge.

Jock

(who once helped someone with some research about WW1 intelligence and ever since has fought against getting too interested)

[TD60]

Many Thanks for all details !

The reason why those two graves were treated differently

- one with intelligence corps the other with the real unit -

stays unclear for me.

[Adrian]

James Seabrook was of French Huguenot descent on his mother's side and played a prominent role in the Chelmsford Amateur Dramatic Club - I read somewhere that actors were one category of man that the Intelligence Corps were after.

Seabrook has a brief biography in the Bond of Sacrifice and in a volume of de Ruvigny's Roll of Honour.