Alan_J Posted 12 May , 2005 Share Posted 12 May , 2005 I've searched the Forum and not managed to turn anything up on this - in quite a number of Cemeteries there are a few German burials. For instance, at Vermelles Military Cemetery there are four, three of the graves if my very poor German is correct state "Unidentified German soldier" and one states "Unidentified German prisoner" - that's if "Unbekannter" means unidentified. And if "Krieger" means prisoner! If so, there is a clear distinction that one of the burials was of a prisoner; the other three of German soldiers who were presumably killed in action but buried by the British - maybe they took part in a raid on British trenches, were killed and hence buried? Vermelles Military Cemetery is a war-time cemetery (at least in part) - so this is possible. My question is, does any information at all survive on these occasional German burials, or, as the CWGC took over from the military who may not have worried too much about the records of burials of the enemy, is there nothing? I suspect the latter, but would appreciate any information or views on this. Thanks in advance Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 12 May , 2005 Share Posted 12 May , 2005 Alan, krieg means 'war'. krieger means 'warrior, soldier'. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 12 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2005 Kath, Thanks. In that case I guess all four are German soldiers - one was not not a prisoner. Confirms how bad my German is! I wonder why the inscriptions are different. The one which states "Krieger" is right next to two others which state "Soldat". Yet another question! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 12 May , 2005 Share Posted 12 May , 2005 CWGC keep records of all Foreign Nationals in their care although it is only the info taken over from the army when the cemeteries were transferred to them after the war. This information is sparse and consists of little more than name, date of death, service and burial location - sometimes they have rank and number as well (mostly WW2). The VdK sometimes holds more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 12 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2005 Terry, Thanks - that's more than I hoped. Is it possible to access this information via the CWGC website, or in the case of unknowns (such as Vermelles) would there really be anything? Date of death would be interesting if recorded. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 12 May , 2005 Share Posted 12 May , 2005 You can't access the Foreign Nationals on the website but I can supply the information if you want it for named burials. There is no data on 'Unknowns'. CWGC simply records the nationality and service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 13 May , 2005 Share Posted 13 May , 2005 The one which states "Krieger" is right next to two others which state "Soldat". Could 'warrior' be a body that could not be identified as belonging to the army, airforce or even navy while 'soldier' could be identified as belonging to the army? Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 13 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2005 Terry, Thanks for that, I was particularly interested in he German burials at Vermelles. If there is no information on unknowns (which all four are) then I guess there is no further data on these men as I half expected. Marco, I think your explanation is probably right, as these men were buried next to each other that would be a good explanation for the different inscriptions. On the other hand, just because they were buried next to each other does not neccessarily mean they were contemoporary burials. Many thanks to all. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc glorieux Posted 13 May , 2005 Share Posted 13 May , 2005 Hi alan, kath, marco and others I think that you must read: soldier = krieger : someone who is serving in the army unidentified = unbekant: totaly without any recognition (no insigna, uniform, could not talk, ...) rank(here base rank) British: Private, rifleman, driver ... German: soldat, gefreiter, musketier, fahrer; .... I am living in Flanders, ia municipality 12 miles east of the ypres salient, located in Germa "Etappegebied" . the area with german biletting, supply, ... and also hospitals. In 1917 (?) and 1918 , there was a german hospital and a german cemetery ) there are buried (in the german zone) a 12 british soldiers, 1 french and 1 italian (who must been a POW). after the war the british are moved to a CWcemetery, the french one to Notre Dame de la Lorette (near Vimy-France) and the Italian one to Houthulst (belgium) . The germazns moved in 1955 to the gemrman cemetery of "Menin Wald - belgium) . I have for the moment not my papers on me, but I remember that the date was always situated during an offensive. that gives me the idea that the british were wounded and found in a trench or in nomandsland. and that they not have survived the hospitalisation. If you wish, i can sent next week the names , rank, unit , date of death of those victims. Sorry grammatical mistakes, but english is not my tradition language. mark from flanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 13 May , 2005 Share Posted 13 May , 2005 soldier = krieger : someone who is serving in the army Hello Marc, I don't think so. The explanation I gave is also the reason for the grave in Westminister to talk of an 'Unknown Warrior' and not an unknown soldier. They wanted to make sure the wording also included pilots, sailors, etc. Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 13 May , 2005 Share Posted 13 May , 2005 We're in danger of getting wrapped around the axle on this one. A German grave at the beginnning of the Great War tended to be called a Heldengrab, i.e. a hero's grave and they were assembled into a Heldenfriedhof i.e a cemetery for heroes. Some of these were really quite elaborate and often placed as plots in civilian churchyards. Smart headstones and memorials appeared. Some of them may be seen at the museum at Sanctuary Wood. This usage died out over the next three years and by 1915 Krieger/Kriegergrab/Kriegerfriedhof took over. There was not much talk of Soldat/Soldatengrab/Soldatenfriedhof at the time, that appeared later still. Certainly all the decrees from the Ministry of War etc issued before and for a time after the war used Krieger. Initially the body which looked after the graves of the German fallen was called the Kriegergraeberfuersorge, for example. What I am pointing out - and my authority for stating it baldly is an unpublished MA thesis on the subject by Harmut Kroll submitted in Berlin some years ago - is that Krieger and Soldat and all the variants on them are synonymous as far as the occupanst of graves are concerned. There is a good deal more which could be said about German graves in Allied cemeteries if anyone is interested and would like to post a question. If you want to see a real concentration of them, try Rossignol cemetery up near Gommecourt where they outnumber the Allied graves. They include several named individuals from IR 170, captured at or near Gommecourt on 1st July 1916. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 If you use the search function , you will find all my earlier posted threads concerning the grave of my Grandfather on CWGC grounds. He is buried at CWGC Merville Communal Annex, and I posted a lot throughout the last years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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