Adolf Hitler

[PhilB]

I read that Hitler was not considered to have qualities of leadership suitable for promotion past corporal during his WW1 service. Unlike Robertson, who held every rank, Hitler was only private, corporal and Fuhrer! When watching film of the Nuremberg rallies, it`s hard to credit that he didn`t have leadership qualities, irrespective of his obvious shortcomings. What do you think his optimum army rank would have been? Phil B

[doogal]

Hi,

Possibly, under the circumstances that followed the war, he learned leadership skills the long hard way - don't forget, he was involved in the failed Beer Putsch of 1923, and whilst at his trail, his public speaking abilities during this incident were noted, the broad history of this event shows a naivety and sense of drama that exceeded his power and abilities at the time. Unfortunately, the subsequent prison sentence gave him time to reflect upon his crimes and mistakes - and write Mein Kampf. Yet even after this it still took the best part of a decade for him to establish himself as Leader.

regards

doogal

[zooloo]

I've read that Hitler was a very good speaker and that's his strength.

"When Goebals speaks everyone says 'What a fine speech'. When Hitler speaks, they march". Cannot remember where this quote is from.

The Chinese have an interesting slant on leader, it's more like "He who is at the centre". Which could apply.

Overall on the notion of his leadership... he didn't do that well beyond raising the rabble.

zoo

[doogal]

What do you think his optimum army rank would have been?

sorry, I forgot to answer the question

I reckon corporal was enough, from the very limited knowledge I have of his activities and jobs during the war. I just wish it had been enough for him.

regards

doogal

[Tom Morgan]

What do you think his optimum army rank would have been?  Phil B

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Corporal, Killed in Action.

Tom

[AndyHollinger]

I think leadership is a very broad topic ... Hitler a great leader ... yes, at a very high level ... great speaker, yes - again at a high level ... but could you imagine him taking a machine gun nest with a bunch of guys? Marshall won the war and the peace, but as a platoon officer ... how about Ike ... he was a great CoC but I don't think he put the world on fire as a platoon leader ... Military leadership takes vision, guts, ability to motivate and at the small unit level - the person, not the masses ...

[RichardH]

Optimum army rank- you could argue that he achieved all he could as corporal in his four years service- if he was anything special surely his superiors would have recognised it?

Having said that- he obviously was a 'good' political leader- I remember reading somewhere that a (socialist) historian said that if Hitler had died in 1938, before Kristalnacht, and before any obvious anti semitism, he could have gone down in history as one of the worlds greatest ever leaders...

Not so sure about that though...

Regards

Richard

[marina]

I recall reading that he was a difficult, moody, and introverted man in the early years, lazy, and not capable of getting on with people in the normal way. Hardly likely to recommend him for promotion.

His crowd rousing scenes were when he came alive - the only relationship he understood seems to have been one of adoration and obedience. His favourites were the ones who gave him unquestioning loyalty and obedience.

He was the despair of his staff during the second war due to his laziness and habit of 'lying around' during crises. He 'led' by delegating although of course broad strategy was his domain. On the other hand, he considered himself an expert on everything military and over ruled people with real experience - thus the fatal decision to attack Russia.

His rank in the Great War was probably about right - corporal. Tom's Killed In Action bit - the greatest 'if only' in the history of the world.

Marina

PS if you haven;t seen 'Downfall', it's brilliant.

[Guest]

One thing you have to remember about Hitler is that he was personally very adverse to working and did as little of it as possible. Lazy! Hardly a qualification for military promotion.

Big gob though, I will grant him that.

[PhilB]

Was it Napoleon who said the worst combination for a general was industrious and unintelligent (They make lots of mistakes) and that he preferred intelligent, not too industrious generals - they just did what needed to be done? Phil B

[6th Shropshires]

Hitler was a 'good' political leader, he told the German people what they wanted to hear and they loved him. But as a military leader he was crap, how many times did he go against the advice of Top Generals like Romel.

Annette

[PhilB]

So do you reckon he`d have been no good as a battalion commander, say? Was he even "officer material"? Can Goering, Ludendorf etc accept him without his being officer material? Phil B

[marina]

Did they have any choice?

Marina

[CROONAERT]

Of course they did!

Hitler was basically a "nobody" when they could have rejected or ignored him! He had far too much potential to ignore though.

Dave.

[RichardH]

But with military promotion, to a greater or lesser degree, its about ability to do the job- ie somebody above you recognises leadership potential and then rewards with a step up in rank- with politics its the other way around- its all about how well you can convince/ persuade/ sell yourself, regardless of whether or not you could actually do the job. Hitler was all talk and no action- he could verbally impress, and his sales skills and self promotion must have been superb- hence his rise to Fuhrer- as a soldier he was probably very very average at doing the job he was paid to do- subsequently he never rose through the ranks. Perhaps.

Regards

Richard

[PilgrimDuke]

I would say that he ended up where he should have, which is a puzzle to me, and raises other questions.

I can't believe that his superiors would have passed over someone for higher level jobs unless he failed to show leadership abilities. I don't know the specifics of his unit, but I have to assume that there were openings and he was probably a little older than the average soldier since he was 25 when the war started. He was good at his job and won an Iron Cross Second Class and an Iron Class First Class. (Very quick research shows that approximately 5 million second class and 218,000 first class Iron Crosses were awarded during the war. Winning one might not necessarily place someone at the very top when it comes to combat skills and bravery, but it's an indicator that he was above average at his job.)

Given all the positives for promotion, his superiors must have really though that he didn't have leadership qualities. This brings up the question of how he was able to develop these qualities in such a short time after the war, to the point where officers such as Goering were following him. I normally don't go in for this sort of thing, but if there was ever an argument for someone selling their soul, this would have to be it.

[PhilB]

  This brings up the question of how he was able to develop these qualities in such a short time after the war, to the point where officers such as Goering were following him. 

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Exactly, PD! How could he persuade Goering, Hindenburg and Ludendorff that he was Chancellor material when his CO apparently didn`t rate him sergeant material? Particularly, as you say, when he had the Iron Cross 1st class, which at least indicates that he was not lacking in soldierly virtue! Phil B

[AndyHollinger]

To be a prophet is different than being a military Non-com ... I doubt they were looking for a God ... they were looking for a Sgt ... and that he'd never make ... Hilter had a problem saying "Yes Sir" and that would have kept him out. As to how Goering and the rest ... he was there, he was saying the words he needed to say ... and they were out of work ... as to Luddendorf ... well, he, by that time was way off his rocker and so far right he didn't know which way to go ... except not left

[CROONAERT]

218,000 first class Iron Crosses were awarded during the war.  Winning one might not necessarily place someone at the very top when it comes to combat skills and bravery, but it's an indicator that he was above average at his job.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The statistics make it look like the Iron Cross was dished out pretty easily. Any idea on the statistics for the award of the E.K.1 to NCO's? The vast majority of these 218,000 awards were to officers. You had to be pretty special to win one as an NCO! (Way above average, I'd say!!!! )

Dave.

[PilgrimDuke]

The statistics make it look like the Iron Cross was dished out pretty easily. Any idea on the statistics for the award of the E.K.1 to NCO's?  The vast majority of these 218,000 awards were to officers. You had to be pretty special to win one as an NCO! (Way above average, I'd say!!!! )

Dave.

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I don't know how many of the Iron Cross First Class went to NCOs. My limited research indicates that this award was primarily for the officer corp, but that it was not unheard of that it would go to an enlisted person. A couple of sources indicate that the records concerning this were destroyed in WWII bombing. After additional research, I also found further stats that estimated that between 1.5 and 5 million second class were awarded and 80,000-250,000 first class were awarded in WWI.

[PilgrimDuke]

I'll shut up and not beat this to death, but after I couldn't find anything in the archives I did some quick research in the library between a dental appointment and a lecture that my wife wanted me to go to with her. (I take direction very well, which is why I've been married for 30 years.)

According to Alan (Lord) Bullock in his book Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, "...the fact that Hitler never rose above the rank of corporal aroused curiosity and was much discussed in the German press before 1933. There is no evidence that Hitler ever applied or was eager for promotion to the rank of non-commissioned officer...He appears to have been content with the job he had. It is probable, also, that the impression of eccentricty which he continued to give was no recommendation." (pp. 52-3)

Bullock then goes on to cite one Hans Mend, who served with Hitler and who called him a "peculiar fellow" who would be in deep contemplation and then erupt in outbursts against invisible forces including Marxists and Jews. I took that at face value, but when glancing through another book by Lothar Machtan, The Hidden Hitler, there was a lot more detail on Hans Mend, and I did some quick research on him. (Dr. Machtan is a history professor at Bremen University.) I don't know what to make of Mend or any statements that he made. He was convicted of fraud in 1919 and received a 5 month sentence, was convicted of a property crime in 1921 and got two years, and was convicted of forgery in 1930. He was also convicted of a sex crime against children in 1936 and did 2 1/2 years of hard labor and was convicted of similar charges in 1939 and he died in prison in 1942. I don't know about the validity of the sex charges and they have a whiff of being trumped up since by that time Mend was starting to make allegations about the sexual orientation of Hitler. Even if those charges were untrue, the prior criminal history should cause one to take anything that he said with an extreme caution.

[armourersergeant]

I firmly beleive some of what Hitler became in political and personality was created by what he did and suffered in the war and what happened after the armastice.

How do you define leadership qualities?

He got a nation of its knees and engulfed in a war they could so easily have won.

I would say he had leadership qualities.

he was however not a perfect leader and suffered the advice of others badly and thus one of the greatest of leadership qualities, to accept others views was not a strength of his. Ultimately he was a bad leader. But no one can say he did not have leadership qualities.

regards

Arm.

[robbie]

I firmly beleive some of what Hitler became in political and personality was created by what he did and suffered in the war and what happened after the armastice.

How do you define leadership qualities?

He got a nation of its knees and engulfed in a war they could so easily have won.

I would say he had leadership qualities.

he was however not a perfect leader and suffered the advice of others badly and thus one of the greatest of leadership qualities, to accept others views was not a strength of his. Ultimately he was a bad leader. But no one can say he did not have leadership qualities.

regards

Arm.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possibly, Arm. However, it is very likely that his father, who was 51 when Hitler was born, and his inability to make friends particulary in his school years, played a major part in the adult persona. His father adopted an authoritarian parenting style - he was extremely strict with the young Hitler. His mother was quite the opposite preferring a laissez-faire style of parenting. His father died when hitler was young. He was a poor student and lacked friends. Yet he wanted to be noticed..he certainly achieved that goal.

Robbie

[armourersergeant]

Possibly, Arm. However, it is very likely that his father, who was 51 when Hitler was born, and his inability to make friends particulary in his school years, played a major part in the adult persona. His father adopted an authoritarian parenting style - he was extremely strict with the young Hitler. His mother was quite the opposite preferring a laissez-faire style of parenting. His father died when hitler was young. He was a poor student and lacked friends. Yet he wanted to be noticed..he certainly achieved that goal.

Robbie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Robbie,

I was thinking that much of the drive and energy emerged from what he percieved to be the betrayl and humiliation of the German army after WW1. Obviously his early life would have effected him but it seems that a different man came home after ww1 than started it! (IMO)

That is not to say i blame WW1 for what he became and did. But more that it gave his warped perception a motive and direction to grow.

regards

Arm.

[robbie]

Robbie,

I was thinking that much of the drive and energy emerged from what he percieved to be the betrayl and humiliation of the German army after WW1. Obviously his early life would have effected him but it seems that a different man came home after ww1 than started it! (IMO)

That is not to say i blame WW1 for what he became and did. But more that it gave his warped perception a motive and direction to grow.

regards

Arm.

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Very true, Arm.

Robbie