irish guards,1st+2nd batts

[bernardmcilwaine]

can do look ups for both batts.

[Stephenb]

can do look ups for both batts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bernard,

can you see what you can find on the following officer:

Second Lieutenant Victor James Somerset French, 1st Bn., killed in action 10/10/18

Many thanks,

Steve

[bernardmcilwaine]

Bernard,

can you see what you can find on the following officer:

Second Lieutenant Victor James Somerset French, 1st Bn., killed in action 10/10/18

Many thanks,

Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hiya steve,its not much ime afraid,on 5th oct 2nd/Lt french joined for duty.

10th oct,after reaching the outskirts ofbeauvais-en-cambrensis on the cambrai-le-cateau rd a single sniper from a house shot dead 2nd/Lt french from 4th coy,he was the only officer killed on 10/11 oct,bernard

[Stephenb]

hiya steve,its not much ime afraid,on 5th oct 2nd/Lt french joined for duty.

10th oct,after reaching the outskirts ofbeauvais-en-cambrensis on the cambrai-le-cateau rd a single sniper from a house shot dead 2nd/Lt french from 4th coy,he was the only officer killed on 10/11 oct,bernard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Bernard,

really interesting information. So sad that he only lasted 5 days, this must have been his first and only acton.

Regards, Steve

[bernardmcilwaine]

Thanks Bernard,

really interesting information. So sad that he only lasted 5 days, this must have been his first and only acton.

Regards, Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hiya steve,yes i think it was his first time,if there is anything else you want looking up just give us a shout bernard,ps there were some other officers who joined the same day

[Stephenb]

hiya steve,yes i think it was his first time,if there is anything else you want looking up just give us a shout bernard,ps there were some other officers who joined the same day

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Bernard,

I have one other officer - different Battalion. Lieutenant Noel Douglas Bayly, 2nd Bn, killed in action 27/11/17. I have his papers from the National Archives so it will be nice to see what Kipling's history has on him.

Regards,

Steve

[bernardmcilwaine]

Thanks Bernard,

I have one other officer - different Battalion. Lieutenant Noel Douglas Bayly, 2nd Bn, killed in action 27/11/17. I have his papers from the National Archives so it will be nice to see what Kipling's history has on him.

Regards,

Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is all it says, three officers missing,Lt n d bayly of No2 coy,Lt w g rea of No3 coy and Lt n f durant of No4 coy[believed wounded],bernard

[Desmond7]

Bernard - I can't post a link to this topic BUT if you search for

Soldier' brutal story/Desmond7

Using the all forums/older search

Could you have a look at this guy and see if any remote mentions of him come up? I'm now convinced that he did not become an officer nor was he subject to any gallantry medals. But you never know what you might find. I'd be grateful.

Des

[Stephenb]

this is all it says, three officers missing,Lt n d bayly of No2 coy,Lt w g rea of No3 coy and Lt n f durant of No4 coy[believed wounded],bernard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, every little helps!

Incidentally his file lists a witness statement as follows:

"On the 27th Nov. we were advancing through Bourlon Wood under machine gun fire when Lt. Bayly, who was close to me, was struck in the head - half of which was blown off. We went on and I was soon taken a prisoner. His body must have fallen into the hands of the Germans who captured the wood".

Thankfully his body was found in 1920 near Fontaine Notre Dame and laid to rest.

[bernardmcilwaine]

Thanks, every little helps!

Incidentally his file lists a witness statement as follows:

"On the 27th Nov. we were advancing through Bourlon Wood under machine gun fire when Lt. Bayly, who was close to me, was struck in the head - half of which was blown off. We went on and I was soon taken a prisoner. His body must have fallen into the hands of the Germans who captured the wood".

Thankfully his body was found in 1920 near Fontaine Notre Dame and laid to rest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

stephen i missed a bit,the diary says,Lts bayly and rea missing,lets just say they are dead.

[Stephenb]

stephen i missed a bit,the diary says,Lts bayly and rea missing,lets just say they are dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Bernard, Rea was lucky and survived as he's on another witness statement dated 1919.

I'll post a photo of Lieutenant Bayly if you're interested.

[Desmond7]

Could someone do me a favour and post a link to the topic I have mentioned above? For whatever reason I can't seem to copy the link!!

Cheers Des

[shaymen]

Could someone do me a favour and post a link to the topic I have mentioned above? For whatever reason I can't seem to copy the link!!

Cheers Des

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Des

Hope this is what you want

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...9;+brutal+story

Glyn

[Desmond7]

Played my son!

[bernardmcilwaine]

Played my son!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

des did you get my pm,bernard

[Desmond7]

Sorry Bernard .. I think I may have deleted it by mistake!

[bernardmcilwaine]

Sorry Bernard .. I think I may have deleted it by mistake!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hiya des,did you have some doubts about the man in question,i couldnt find anything,not even anything that sounds like the scrap he was supposed to have been involved in,if you want,i will scan that part of the diary and e.mail it,it would have been between late sept and early nov,going off the time he was back in ireland,i think you are spot on when you said it was a tall story,just a thought des,but do you think the reporter got his regt wrong and it should have been the gloucs not the guards,bernard

[Desmond7]

I know the guy was definitely Guards .. here's another yarn from him which is pretty accurate if you excuse some woffly bits and the (IMHO) fake uniform scenario.

Funny enough there is a W. J. Nesbitt who becomes a big noise in ex-servicemen's associations in the 1930s .. tying up the loose ends is the problem.

Anyway .. here you go

Oct. 30 1914 Ballymena Observer

A Ballymena soldier at the front

‘Irish Guards will never surrender’

Thrilling Experience

Corporal W. J. Nesbitt, writing on the 9th inst. to his father, Mr. Nesbitt, Mount Street, gives an interesting and thrilling account of the Irish Guards in the retreat at Compiegne in September.

Cpl. Nesbitt was a constable in the Royal Irish Constabulary and being a reservist of the Irish Guards was called up at the outbreak of war.

He writes:-

On the 1st of September the guards were covering the retreat of the 2nd Division. At about 4 o’clock in the morning, the Irish Guards took up a position to resist the enemy’s advance, who were quite close to us. My platoon, consisting of some 50 men, occupied a small ridge in a cornfield. We remained there about two hours when suddenly came the

advance guard of the enemy.

Our small force could not hold so many so we retired as fast as we could. When we reached the main body we found over half of our party was missing. Their fate is unknown, probably killed or captured. We found our btn. lining the road, guarding the entrance to a thick wood. The wood stretched for miles on both sides of the road.

Suddenly a shower of bullets was poured into us from all sides. Our commanding officer, Col. G. H. Morris,immediately gave orders for us to advance by companies into the woods. During the time our artillery, consisting of four guns had been silenced by the enemy’s guns. We were thus left without support.

We advanced through the woods until we came to the outer fringe where we lay down to await the German advance.

Son we could see them coming over the skyline, thousands of them, in company column, marching shoulder to shoulder.

We awaited until the foremost ranks were about 200 yards distant when the order to fire was given. Our machine guns and rapid fire mowed them down like corn before a reaper, still they came on until their dead was piled five or six feet high (surely impossible! Des words)

With drums beating, bugles blowing, uttering a peculiar kind of yell (the German ‘Hoch’ I suppose) they charged time and time again only to be driven back before the awful fire. This went on for about two hours when our Brigadier gave the order to retire.

We retired again up the road....and this gave the enemy time to come up behind us, thus we were almost surrounded.

My company was again led into the woods to reinforce the Coldstreams who were on our left. Our captain had been shot some time previous to this so another officer, Lord Innes-Kerr took charge of us.

We were told not to fire on any account until we got an order. We went into the woods for some distance until we could see a line of men in front of us who were lying down.

Our officer said again: “Irish Guards don’t fire your own men are in front of you.”

Judge of our surprise when a voice came from the party whom we thought to be British, “if you be the Irish Guards we will give three minutes to surrender” It was party of Germans dressed in khaki, probably taken from our dead and wounded.

Our officer, like the hero and gentleman that he was, shouted back “Irish Guards will never surrender”. He was shot

down immediately. We fought our best but what could a few do against so many? We charged our way with fixed

bayonets back to the road again. The bullets were poured into us from all sides and there seemed no hope of escape.

We crossed through the wood on the other side of the road and fighting our way foot by foot, eventually got clear.

It would take the pen of a Hugo or Conan Doyle to adequately depict the deeds of unparalleled heroism which I witnessed that day. But suffice it to say, those who doubt the courage of Irishmen ought to have been there that day and they never again would doubt.

When we got safely out of that awful death trap, I thanked God for His mercy. The roll was called later on and we found we had lost our CO and eight officers (including the Brigadier wounded) and about 200n men. It would fill a small volume to detail every incident of that day. I only give you the base outline.

We had been fighting from 4am until three in the afternoon without bite or sup, then we had to march nearly 20 miles before we rested.

We halted at 12 midnight , got some tea and biscuits and then off again at 2o’clock a.m. Another 20-25 miles; so it went on day after day.

On September 6, the enemy began to retire. It was on a Sunday. The Guards Brigade were in advance. We came in contact with the enemy’s cavalry near a small wood. The Uhlans charged us but we repulsed them easily. We

advanced towards the enemy infantry. In order to do this we had to cross a road then an open space swept by the enemy’s maxims.

We charged with fixed bayonets and I don’t think we did badly when we captured 12 maxims from the enemy (which) speaking of courage and bravado - this is an instance I witnessed that day. When we were advancing across that open space there were a few apple and plum trees growing. Immediately our fellows came to them they commenced to pick them off and fill their pockets. Bullets were whistling round them like hail but they didn’t seem to regard them in the least.

Just the same here in the trenches where we have been for over three weeks. The men light fires, cook food and eat

it, all the while shells continually bursting over them. One seems to get hardened to anything here.

Trusting you are all well at home, and that you may get this safely. I have plenty of socks and shirts now but what I should like most would be a local paper every week if I could possibly get it. Hoping that I may hear from you all soon.

The Editor notes: In a PS he returns thanks for cigarettes which he said were much appreciated by the men in his section.

This account has been verified as a generally true and accurate (if a little jingoistic) portrayal of the actions fought by the Irish Guards during the battle of Compiegene - part of the retreat from Mons - with one exception. The first few months of World War 1 are filled with stories of the atrocities and trickery of the

bloodthirsty and treacherous ‘Hun’.

There certainly were atrocities carried out by German troops in Belgium and there are also many accounts of Germans dressed up in allied uniforms, seeking to gain an advantage.

However, most of these latter accounts have now proved to be based on rumour and soldier’s tales which spread like wildfire during hectic-battlefield conditions. So, while 95% of Corporal Nesbitt’s tale is provably accurate in historical terms, we must take the paragraphs concerning the Germans’ use of captured uniforms

with a pinch of salt.

Edited 22 May , 2005 by Desmond7

[bernardmcilwaine]

I know the guy was definitely Guards .. here's another yarn from him which is pretty accurate if you excuse some woffly bits and the (IMHO) fake uniform scenario.

Funny enough there is a W. J. Nesbitt who becomes a big noise in ex-servicemen's associations in the 1930s .. tying up the loose ends is the problem.

Anyway .. here you go

Oct. 30 1914 Ballymena Observer

A Ballymena soldier at the front

‘Irish Guards will never surrender’

Thrilling Experience

Corporal W. J. Nesbitt, writing on the 9th inst. to his father, Mr. Nesbitt, Mount Street, gives an interesting and  thrilling account of the Irish Guards in the retreat at Compiegne in September.

Cpl. Nesbitt was a constable in the Royal Irish Constabulary and being a reservist of the Irish Guards was called up at the outbreak of war.

He writes:-

On the 1st of September the guards were covering the retreat of the 2nd Division. At about 4 o’clock in the morning, the Irish Guards took up a position to resist the enemy’s advance, who were quite close to us. My platoon, consisting of some 50 men, occupied a small ridge in a cornfield. We remained there about two hours when suddenly came the

advance guard of the enemy.

Our small force could not hold so many so we retired as fast as we could. When we reached the main body we found over half of our party was missing. Their fate is unknown, probably killed or captured. We found our btn. lining the road, guarding the entrance to a thick wood. The wood stretched for miles on both sides of the road.

Suddenly a shower of bullets was poured into us from all sides. Our commanding officer, Col. G. H. Morris,immediately gave orders for us to advance by companies into the woods. During the time our artillery, consisting of four guns had been silenced by the enemy’s guns. We were thus left without support.

We advanced through the woods until we came to the outer fringe where we lay down to await the German advance.

Son we could see them coming over the skyline, thousands of them, in company column, marching shoulder to shoulder.

We awaited until the foremost ranks were about 200 yards distant when the order to fire was given. Our machine guns and rapid fire mowed them down like corn before a reaper, still they came on until their dead was piled five or six feet high (surely impossible! Des words)

With drums beating, bugles blowing, uttering a peculiar kind of yell (the German ‘Hoch’ I suppose) they charged time and time again only to be driven back before the awful fire. This went on for about two hours when our Brigadier gave the order to retire.

We retired again up the road....and this gave the enemy time to come up behind us, thus we were almost surrounded.

My company was again led into the woods to reinforce the Coldstreams who were on our left. Our captain had been shot some time previous to this so another officer, Lord Innes-Kerr took charge of us.

We were told not to fire on any account until we got an order. We went into the woods for some distance until we could see a line of men in front of us who were lying down.

Our officer said again: “Irish Guards don’t fire your own men are in front of you.”

Judge of our surprise when a voice came from the party whom we thought to be British, “if you be the Irish Guards we will give three minutes to surrender” It was party of Germans dressed in khaki, probably taken from our dead and wounded.

Our officer, like the hero and gentleman that he was, shouted back “Irish Guards will never surrender”. He was shot

down immediately. We fought our best but what could a few do against so many? We charged our way with fixed

bayonets back to the road again. The bullets were poured into us from all sides and there seemed no hope of escape.

We crossed through the wood on the other side of the road and fighting our way foot by foot, eventually got clear.

It would take the pen of a Hugo or Conan Doyle to adequately depict the deeds of unparalleled heroism which I witnessed that day. But suffice it to say, those who doubt the courage of Irishmen ought to have been there that day and they never again would doubt.

When we got safely out of that awful death trap, I thanked God for His mercy. The roll was called later on and we found we had lost our CO and eight officers (including the Brigadier wounded) and about 200n men. It would fill a small volume to detail every incident of that day. I only give you the base outline.

We had been fighting from 4am until three in the afternoon without bite or sup, then we had to march nearly 20 miles before we rested.

We halted at 12 midnight , got some tea and biscuits and then off again at 2o’clock a.m. Another 20-25 miles; so it went on day after day.

On September 6, the enemy began to retire. It was on a Sunday. The Guards Brigade were in advance. We came in contact with the enemy’s cavalry near a small wood. The Uhlans charged us but we repulsed them easily. We

advanced towards the enemy infantry. In order to do this we had to cross a road then an open space swept by the enemy’s maxims.

We charged with fixed bayonets and I don’t think we did badly when we captured 12 maxims from the enemy (which) speaking of courage and bravado - this is an instance I witnessed that day. When we were advancing across that open space there were a few apple and plum trees growing. Immediately our fellows came to them they commenced to pick them off and fill their pockets. Bullets were whistling round them like hail but they didn’t seem to regard them in the least.

Just the same here in the trenches where we have been for over three weeks. The men light fires, cook food and eat

it, all the while shells continually bursting over them. One seems to get hardened to anything here.

Trusting you are all well at home, and that you may get this safely. I have plenty of socks and shirts now but what I should like most would be a local paper every week if I could possibly get it. Hoping that I may hear from you all soon.

The Editor notes: In a PS he returns thanks for cigarettes which he said were much appreciated by the men in his section.

This account has been verified as a generally true and accurate  (if a little jingoistic) portrayal of the actions fought  by the Irish Guards during the battle of  Compiegene - part of the retreat from Mons - with one exception. The first few months of World War 1 are filled with stories of the atrocities and trickery of the

bloodthirsty and treacherous ‘Hun’.

There certainly were atrocities carried out by German troops in Belgium and there are also many accounts of Germans dressed up in allied uniforms, seeking to gain an advantage.

However, most of these latter accounts have now proved to be based on rumour and soldier’s tales which spread like wildfire during hectic-battlefield conditions.  So, while 95% of Corporal Nesbitt’s tale is provably accurate in historical terms, we must take the paragraphs concerning the Germans’ use of captured uniforms

with a pinch of salt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

des,i cant find anything that tallies with this story,he says that lord innes-kerr took over command after col morris was killed,this is strange because lord innes-kerr was taken prisoner when the col was killed,another thing that i thought he would mention in his story,is,the following morning they requis a oxen and plenty of fesh veg and all were fed,he only says that all he had to eat was some biccys at m/night,thought he may have mentioned the slap up meal,pardon me if i seem a bit suspicious but it sounds like bits and pieces of storys retold by men who were there and then put togethor by the sgt,whats your theory des,bernard

[Desmond7]

AS you will see, I had a few doubts about this way, way back!

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...hl=irish+guards

I just know the letter was published in the local paper of the time. I know very little about the IGs so I'm grateful for what you've told me.

Perhaps it is as you say just cobbled together from a few things he saw and hearsay from others? Was Innes Kerr wounded and captured? He does say that his officer was immediately shot down shortly after taking over his unit?

Has he got his place and timings generally right? And was there ever any capture of 12 maxims etc?

Basically this is just his letter keyed in verbatim but I see I'm going to have to re-write the editorial 'qualification' at the bottom!

Cheers Des

[bernardmcilwaine]

AS you will see, I had a few doubts about this way, way back!

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...hl=irish+guards

I just know the letter was published in the local paper of the time. I know very little about the IGs so I'm grateful for what you've told me.

Perhaps it is as you say just cobbled together from a few things he saw and hearsay from others? Was Innes Kerr wounded and captured? He does say that his officer was immediately shot down shortly after taking over his unit?

Has he got his place and timings generally right? And was there ever any capture of 12 maxims etc?

Basically this is just his letter keyed in verbatim but I see I'm going to have to re-write the editorial 'qualification' at the bottom!

Cheers Des

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

des i think you were right,when you said you doubted it,there is no mention of machine guns being captured,col morris was killed while riding up and down the line,innes kerr was taken prisoner along with some other officers,they were released shortly after when the french counter attacked and released them,bernard

[Stephenb]

Bernard,

anything on 2/Lt C.S. O'Brien M.C., KIA 27/9/18. He was probably one of the officers indirectly replaced by French. Anything on how he won his M.C. etc. and where he was killed?

Thx, Steve

[Stephenb]

Bernard,

have you got anything on Brigadier-Gen Fitzclarence, 1st Bn., killed near Polygon Wood November 1914?

Thanks, Steve

[bernardmcilwaine]

sorry stephen i only just saw this,all it says about him is,he was killed out of the darkness,??not much of a mention for a great man like him,worthy of more than this meagre line,bernard

[Chris_B]

Any information about events at the time of this man's death would be appreciated.

His CWGC entry is:

Name: LAWTON, PETER F.

Initials: P F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: Irish Guards

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Age: 22

Date of Death: 18/05/1915

Service No: 3957

Additional information: Son of Peter Lawton, of 1, Grand Parade, Streatham Rd., Mitcham, Surrey.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 4.

Cemetery: LE TOURET MEMORIAL

His name is open a local war memorial and SDGW lists him as KIA on 18.5.15

Thanks,

Chris.