BRIAN TALMER Posted 8 May , 2005 Share Posted 8 May , 2005 Does any one have any details or a picture of the steamer Invicta? This was the vessel which transported my Great Uncle and the rest of the Bucks Battalion to France in March 1915. The Battalion diary states they left Folkestone at 9.30pm and arrived Boulogne 10.40pm. Can this be correct? a crossing of 1hr 10 mins. That is quicker than the modern ferries! any details gratefully received Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 8 May , 2005 Share Posted 8 May , 2005 Brian There is a photo of the Dover Cross Channel Ferry SS Invicta on this site, although I don't know if it is the Invicta in question. Dave http://www.doverpages.co.uk/dover/ferries/ferries.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRIAN TALMER Posted 8 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2005 Dave, many thanks for the link. It is probably the same one however I've emailed the site to see if they can confirm. cheers Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 10 May , 2005 Share Posted 10 May , 2005 The Battalion diary states they left Folkestone at 9.30pm and arrived Boulogne 10.40pm. Can this be correct? a crossing of 1hr 10 mins. That is quicker than the modern ferries! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Was he quoting local time in both cases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larneman Posted 10 May , 2005 Share Posted 10 May , 2005 On Ebay:-british railways cross channel ferry ss invicta british railways cross channel ferry ss invicta Doubt if it was the original SS Invicta of WW1 fame. Wonder if it is the same SS Invicta that took part in the Dieppe Raid that Jack Nissenthall - The VC Hero Who Never Was- travelled on. Jack Maurice Nissenthall Just wondering how many different SS Invicta's have sailed between Dover and Europe.? Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRIAN TALMER Posted 10 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2005 Liam, helped by other Pals I think there were two ships of this name. I've emailed the seller to see if they can date their card. Thanks for the details. I'm assuming the times quoted were Grenwich Mean Time. It doesn't say Lesley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A.Savery Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 I would be delighted if someone could find something on this ship. It was being used in 1915 to take the 15th Divison to France. Thanks, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 have you tried google ? There are loads of hits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Tony Sounds like a cross channel ferry out of Dover ! I shall take a look at it anyway. Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvis Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 By the spring of 1915 the Territorial battalions of the 48th Division were ready in all respects to take the field, and on the 30th March 1915, the move to France began. The 1/8th Worcestershire bade farewell to their billets of the winter, entrained at Maldon East station and after dusk and began their journey to the Western Front. The Battalion embarked at Folkstone on the ship SS “Invicta” and sailed to Boulogne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvis Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 SS Invicta 1913 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A.Savery Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Thanks to Coldstreamer, Sotonmate and Jarvis for your ideas. Honest! I always first make the effort to find these things either in the forum or Google. Unfortunately all I can find up to now are one or two references to a ship called S.S. Invicta and a photo which I cannot be certain is the same vessel. http://www.doverpages.co.uk/dover/ferries/ferries.htm# Here is another link which mentions the same name of ship in 1951, but would it be the same one? http://www.pan-jumbie.com/sam/snl0505_3.htm There is no doubt that this ship did exist, but what did it look like, how big was it, where was it made and when, are some of the kind of answers I was looking for. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A.Savery Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Wow, that must be my baby! Thanks for that wonderful picture Jarvis. It's certainly not the same ship as I had found before, which I think could be an earlier version to the one that I had seen with one funnel. Many thanks, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvis Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 There is another picture of Invicta here http://www.merchant-navy.net/Thumb%20Pages/thumbs1.html although I am not sure it is the same ship as the picture I first sent to you. The thick plottens. Another couple of snippets here containing reference to Invictas whereabouts at certain times/dates. Frank Dedman Private G/1286 was assigned to 6th (Service) Bn The Queen's (RWSR), his brother James becoming Private G/1292 and being assigned to the 7th Bn The Queen's (RWSR). It is believed that James arrived in France ahead of Frank, on 17th December 1914. Frank departed Aldershot by train on 2nd June 1915 (3) and proceeded to Folkestone, where the battalion boarded the S.S. Invicta and landed at Boulogne at 10.35pm. John Willey James On 6 October, 1916, Johnny reported back from furlough to No 1 Com Depot at Perham Downs, and one week later marched via various depots to Perham Downs, and then embarked from Folkstone, on 7 February 1917 per SS Invicta for France, to rejoin the 55th Battalion at Etaples. He remained with this Battalion for three months, when he was again wounded, on 14 May 1917. He was admitted to 2 S. Hospital at Abbeville, Cayeux, apparently with another gun shot wound to the hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvis Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 So far I have encountered the SS Invicta, TS Invicta and RMS Invicta on my searches. I think the two funnelled ship is the one you are referring to. There also appears to have been an Invicta during WW2 so there is a lot more delving to do here. Unless of course we have a well versed nautical man reading this. ?? There are more pictures available here http://www.the-weatherings.co.uk/pccship0138.htm Invicta 2 funneled version Shipbuilder: William Denny & Brothers Dumbarton, Yard No: 752 Engine Builder: Wm Denny Propulsion: Turbines triple screw Launched: 19 April 1905 Built: 1905 Ship Type: Passenger Ship Ship's Role: Dover - Calais Tonnage: 1680 Length: 311 feet 2 Owner: South Eastern & Chatham Railway Company Status: Scrapped - 1933 Dunkirk Remarks: Sold to French interests in 1923 I think the TS Invicta (Turbine Steamship) is the one funneled ship (built Clydebank ?) and is probably the one which was used into WW2 as a troopship (I have seen some references to 80 nurses being carried on board during early WW2). That only leaves us with the SS and the RMS versions. The SS Invicta is probably the two funneled version described above being built by Denny & Brothers. Next question - are the SS and RMS in fact the same ships ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A.Savery Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Many thanks Jarvis; you have done me proud there. That's the information I was after, so it looks pretty clear cut to me now. The one used in WW1 for the troops has two funnels and was scrapped in 1933 at Dunkirk. The second one has one funnel, which we now have two photos of and was probably the successor. I am certainly no expert on ships but if you compare these two photos: http://www.doverpages.co.uk/dover/ferries/ferries.htm# http://www.merchant-navy.net/Pictures/invicta.html I count nine portholes at the front and the anchor seems to be in the same place. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A.Savery Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 So far I have encountered the SS Invicta, TS Invicta and RMS Invicta on my searches. I think the two funnelled ship is the one you are referring to. That only leaves us with the SS and the RMS versions. Next question - are the SS and RMS in fact the same ships ? I'm still puzzling over your mention of an RMS here, as I have not seen that yet. As I see it the WW1 ship is the SS and TS. In this case would it not be possible that the TS represents TROOP SHIP? Just a thought. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvis Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 I believe TS is for Turbine Steamship rather than Troop Ship. I had a hit with RMS Invicta earlier (Royal Merchant Ship ?) but I didn't keep the link as I guessed it was not what I was looking for. I may regret that moment. Going back to the 1 funnel or 2 question. The Invicta (1 funnel ship) was WW2 Invicta was built for the Southern Railway in 1939 and immediately joined the Admiralty for service until 1945. Ownership passed to British Railways in 1948. She then served on the Dover-Calais route until 1972, when she was scrapped. Invicta was 4,178 gross tons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A.Savery Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Jarvis, Maybe these could be the ones you meant? The 1/4th Battalion, the East Yorkshire Regiment 17 April 1914 Battalion Personnel entrained in two trains at Central Station at 7.45 am and 8.20 am for Folkestone. Strength: 27 officers and 942 other ranks, 2 and 81 having already entrained (on 15th). 8.30 pm RMS “Invicta” sailed for Boulogne with Battalion...arrived 10.15pm. Marched up to the Rest Camp at St Martin arriving about 11.15 pm. From: The Long Long Trail http://www.1914-1918.net/Diaries/wardiary-4EYorks.htm The 5th Gloucesters by W.J. Wood Mar. 29th - The Battalion, under the command of Lt-Col. J.H. Collett, left Chelmsford at 5.30 pm for the Front. A fair number of inhabitants congregated at the station, but not a cheer escaped their throats. However, we were all merry and bright. Arrived at Folkestone 9 pm. Embarked in RMS 'Invicta' for France. The passage over the Channel was delightful in brilliant moonlight. Our boat was accompanied by a destroyer part of the way, and an exchange of lamp signals took place between the two vessels which we were eager to read. Approaching Boulogne harbour, one saw dozens of varied-coloured lamps hung aloft round the shore. The utter silence of the town seemed almost uncanny. We landed at 11 pm. http://members.tripod.com/~Glosters/1st5thdiary1.htm Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Tony I looked in the Lloyd's List this morning for 1914 and came up with the Denny-built 1905 vessel already mentioned here since my first mail. RMS is Royal Mail Ship, TS may or may not be Turbine Steamship as those initials may also cover Training Ship. Were there Turbine steamships in 1905 ? A cross Channel ferry may have the title RMS as it would carry the Royal Mails to the Continent. The ship was built for the South East and Chatham Railway Company and Dover ferries have been traditionally linked with railway companies. The Folkestone pic shown here is the one you need ! Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvis Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 There were indeed Turbine Steamships by 1905 as well as QTTS Quadruple-Screw Turbine Steam Ship. Not sure of the exact dates by certainly pre 1914. Many thanks sotonmate for the pointers as regards RMS and possibly TS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A.Savery Posted 24 January , 2007 Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Thanks Sotonmate and Jarvis for your help till now. However, I feel that I’m in need of a little more clarification on this subject. Am I correct in saying that the ship used to transport the 15th Scottish Division from Folkstone, was the two funneled ship named either the S.S, T.S or R.M.S. Invicta? May I also assume that they are all one and the same vessel? If so would I be right in saying that it was launched as the T.S Invicta and changed to S.S. Invicta at a later date and then again at the start of the war? Would it be possible to ascertain the exact dates of these prefix changes, bearing in mind that it is depicted in 1913 steaming out of Folkstone Harbour and also recorded in War Diaries from 1915? Why was the prefix changed? Was that on account of engine modifications and later because of it’s role in WW1 in delivering both troops and Royal Mail? An interesting subject this, though I would appreciate a few more answers. Thanks, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvis Posted 24 January , 2007 Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Hello Anthony S, after all of the discussion as to SS TS and RMS I have the following information. What is needed now is good naval experience as to the how and why of the different prefixes. There are two good links here to (wait for it....) TSS Invicta http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=11013 tss INVICTA 2 Funnel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- built by William Denny & Brothers Dumbarton, Yard No 752 Engines by Wm Denny -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Propulsion: Turbines triple screw Launched: Wednesday, 19 April 1905 Built: 1905 Ship Type: Passenger Vessel Ship's Role: Dover - Calais Tonnage: 1680 Length: 311 feet 2 Owner History: South Eastern & Chatham Railway Company Status: Scrapped - 1933 Dunkirk Remarks: Sold to French interests in 1923 and TSS Invicta http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=11644 tss INVICTA 1 Funnel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- built by William Denny & Brothers Dumbarton, Yard No 1344 Engines by shipbuilder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Port of Registry: London Propulsion: 4 Steam turbines sr geared to 2 sc shafts 11000shp 22 knots Launched: Thursday, 14 December 1939 Built: 1940 Ship Type: Passenger Vessel Ship's Role: UK/France passenger ferry Tonnage: 4191 grt Length: 348 feet 3 Breadth: 52 feet 3 Draught: 12 feet 9 Owner History: Southern Railway Company Status: Arrived for Scrapping - 22/09/1972 Remarks: 22/9/1972 Arrived Nieuw Lekkerland, Holland, in tow of tug MICHEL PETERSEN for scrapping, but resold, and scrapped in Brugge, Belgium Still not arrived at definitive prefix for each ship, perhaps there have been several roles and several prefixes for them both ? I'll keep scouting it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvis Posted 24 January , 2007 Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Wikipedia's definitions (but with an Americanised slant) A steamboat or steamship, sometimes called a steamer, is a ship in which the primary method of propulsion is steam power, typically driving a propeller or paddlewheel. The term steamboat is usually used to refer to smaller steam-powered boats working on lakes and rivers, particularly riverboats in the USA; steamship generally refers to steam powered ships capable of carrying a (ship's) boat. The term steamwheeler is archaic and rarely used. Steamships gradually replaced sailing ships for commercial shipping through the 19th century, and they were in turn superseded by diesel-driven ships in the second half of the twentieth century. Most warships used steam propulsion until the advent of the gas turbine. Today, nuclear powered warships and submarines use steam to drive turbines, but are not referred to as steamships or steamboats. Screw-driven steamships generally carry the ship prefix "SS" before their names. Paddle steamers usually carry the prefix "PS" and Steamships powered by the steam turbine may be prefixed "TS" (Turbine Ship). The term steamer is occasionally used, out of nostalgia, for diesel motor-driven vessels, prefixed "MV". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A.Savery Posted 24 January , 2007 Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Hi Jarvis, Wonderful stuff, many thanks and a great website that one! It's all starting to sink in.(excuse awful pun!) Anyway, I am beginning to smell the sea air (about 30 miles from here) and I must say I have enjoyed these communications. It's been a change from being in the trenches. I wonder if someone, somewhere has a photo of this ship loaded with soldiers? What a grand sight that would be! Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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