TF Artillery Units

[KONDOA]

Chums,

In 1914 various TF associations raised artillery units.

Would I be correct in assuming that these were an extension of an infantry battalion at this time.

Am I further correct that these were then transferred to Divisional Troops upon completion of training and thus lost the connection with the raising unit?

My particular focus is the batteries raised in Hull by the East Riding TA under Lord Nunburnholm, originally the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Hull Heavy Batteries. Thus were these raised as part of the Hull 1st, 2nd, & 3rd Pals Battalions.

Many thanks for any insights.

Roop

[Simon R]

Kondoa/Roop

TF artillery brigades were quite distinct from the infantry and, in organisational terms, were in no way an extension of an infantry battalion.

If you mean 'were they raised in a similar way to infantry btns.', then yes I would say they probably were. It would depend on where you lived as to what particular TF force you went into.

The reason you're losing sight of your Hull heavies is that they were most likely RGA which did become divisional or army units. There's a lot of re-naming, re-numbering at various stages 14-18 and we shouldn't necessarily equate a new system of numbers with a loss of connection to local areas. A bty. doesn't stop being a body of men drawn from a particular area because it's got a new number, it's easy to get the impression that amalgamation causes units to cease to exist entirely. Later constitution will certainly change, but not necessarily in a way entirely out of character with it's traditional recruiting area.

e.g. 1/10th Otley, 1/11th Ilkley howitzers (4th West Riding RFA) from Wharfedale with v.strong local character become D btys. 246th and 245th Brigades RFA with wider connections to Bradford and Leeds - not a million miles away and still Yorkshire based.

The Hull btys. were presumably based in part on RGA units from Fort Paull and in existence pre-1914; they won't have been Pals.

[CSMMo]

As a practical example, the 1st Ross-Shire Artillery Volunteer Corps and the 1st Battalion, Argyll & Bute Volunteer Artillery, formed around 1859-1860, and trained as Artillerymen from that time forward. In 1908, in accordance with the Haldane Reforms, they were transformed into the 4th Highland (Mountain) Brigade, a part of the Highland Divisional Artillery and the only mountain artillery in the UK proper or the TF. Those units became the Argyllshire Mountain Battery, the Buteshire Mountain Battery and the Ross & Cromarty-Shire Mountain Battery. They were never known by any other name. Although during the war, someone gave them the number "259th Brigade, RGA", it was never used.

The reconstitution of the Volunteers in the Napoleonic era specifically called for Artillery units, particularly near the coast, as a home defense measure. Many Volunteer Artillery units were created throughout the UK and they were mostly transformed into TF Artillery units in 1908.

[joseph]

Hi,

New member to the forum, Ive been grazing for some time and am awe struck at the knowledge you people have. East riding RGA (TF) is what I have been trying to come to terms with and have got some of the pieces in place.

In answer to your question Roop my assumption " did someone say don't assume"

is the regular RGA having been committed, left the field to the Territorial Force, and these chaps were spread far and wide to teach and form new batteries.

Not found the TF association minutes for Hull/E.Riding. The Hull heavy batteries seem to be drawn from the New army recruits and only the best at that, carn't understand Doctors? with an input of senior Territorial manpower.

The only mention of the formation of the Hull Heavy Battery I have at the moment is from The Hull Daily Mail 17 Sept 1914 the figures are approximate

[joseph]

Hi,

New member to the forum, Ive been grazing for some time and am awe struck at the knowledge you people have. East riding RGA (TF) is what I have been trying to come to terms with and have got some of the pieces in place.

In answer to your question Roop my assumption " did someone say don't assume"

is the regular RGA having been committed, left the field to the Territorial Force, and these chaps were spread far and wide to teach and form new batteries.

Not found the TF association minutes for Hull/E.Riding. The Hull heavy batteries seem to be drawn from the New army recruits and only the best at that, carn't understand Doctors? with an input of senior Territorial manpower.

The only mention of the formation of the Hull Heavy Battery I have at the moment is from The Hull Daily Mail 17 Sept 1914 the figures are approximate

[joseph]

Hi,

New member to the forum, Ive been grazing for some time and am awe struck at the knowledge you people have. East riding RGA (TF) is what I have been trying to come to terms with and have got some of the pieces in place.

In answer to your question Roop my assumption " did someone say don't assume"

is the regular RGA having been committed, left the field to the Territorial Force, and these chaps were spread far and wide to teach and form new batteries.

Not found the TF association minutes for Hull/E.Riding. The Hull heavy batteries seem to be drawn from the New army recruits and only the best at that, carn't understand Doctors? with an input of senior Territorial manpower.

The only mention of the formation of the Hull Heavy Battery I have at the moment is from The Hull Daily Mail 17 Sept 1914 the figures are approximate

[Jock Bruce]

Roop,

why do you think these are TF units rather than New/Kitchener Army ones?

TF Associations did act as recruiting agents for the New Armies in '14 - this at the request of Kitchener - but I do not think these are TF units.

Jock

[Simon R]

It they were TF btys. then they aren't strictly Pals since they weren't New Army.

The Long, Long Trail will surely give unit details, I think we need to be sure of what we're actually talking about first!

[Simon R]

Right, check this out.

Wyrall, Everard 1928 'The East Yorkshire Regiment in the Great War 1914-1918'

Harrison pub.

Hadrill, C.I. (ed.) 1937 'A History of the 10th (Service) Btn. The East Yorkshire

Regiment (Hull Commercials) 1914-1919'

Hull, Brown pub.

Barnes, B.S. 1990 'This Righteous War'

Huddersfield, Richard Netherwood pub.

? 1923 'Some of Them; A short diary of the 11th Service Btn.'

Southend, John H. Brown pub.

31st Division

92nd Brigade

10th Btn. (1st Hull)

11th Btn. (2nd Hull)

12th Btn. (3rd Hull)

13th Btn. (?4th?)

So, not TF at all - New Army.

In direct answer to your initial questions:

1) Not an extension of an infantry btn.

2) Depends on the unit - see Long, Long Trail

3) New Army btns. not TF but TA may have been used as recruiting agency as

previously pointed out.

n.b. the artillery btys. could still be TF i.e. RGA units in existence pre 1914, expanded to 3 btys. (brigades??) post 1914.

Alright?

[joseph]

Right, check this out.

Wyrall, Everard 1928 'The East Yorkshire Regiment in the Great War 1914-1918'

                                Harrison pub.

Hadrill, C.I. (ed.) 1937 'A History of the 10th (Service) Btn. The East Yorkshire

                                  Regiment (Hull Commercials) 1914-1919'

                                  Hull, Brown pub.

Barnes, B.S. 1990 'This Righteous War'

                            Huddersfield, Richard Netherwood pub.

        ?          1923 'Some of Them; A short diary of the 11th Service Btn.'

                            Southend, John H. Brown pub.

31st Division

92nd Brigade

10th Btn. (1st Hull)

11th Btn. (2nd Hull)

12th Btn. (3rd Hull)

13th Btn. (?4th?)

So, not TF at all - New Army.

In direct answer to your initial questions:

1) Not an extension of an infantry btn.

2) Depends on the unit - see Long, Long Trail

3) New Army btns. not TF but TA may have been used as recruiting agency as

    previously pointed out.

n.b. the artillery btys. could still be TF i.e. RGA units in existence pre 1914, expanded to 3 btys. (brigades??) post 1914.

Alright?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Roop,

1st Hull Heavy battery raised by Lord Nunburnholm was sanctioned on 10 Sept 1914.

Captain J.C. Williams RNR appointed Acting Commanding officer.

Headquarters East Hull Barracks with 4 x 4.7 inch guns (Don't know if they had them when forming)

The 1st and 2nd Hull pals had both been formed and commenced training prior to this battery being sanctioned.

Have located E. Riding TF Association minutes will have a better look next week.

Have more information on the requirements and size of the battery if you want it.

Charles

Bit like millionaire this, easy sat at home, not so easy answering.

[KONDOA]

Thank you chums for your valued replies to my query.

I have quite a considerable pile of info regarding the 1st Hull Battery but the formation period is the foggy bit.

The battery was instigated as mentioned by the East Riding Territorial Association under Lord Nunburnholme who later in 1918 actually served with the renumbered battery in France (545th Siege Bty.). This made me assume it was a TF Battery and also the initial numbering of the troops therein which were changed to 6 digits in 1917. So Jock what you have indicated would seem to fit the bill ie. TF association acting as agents.

Charles (Joseph) , I note you have some interest in the area , any RGA connections?? Send a PM if you wish we could share notes maybe.

The Hull Batteries of the RGA formed in this manner are:

1st Hull Heavy Battery later 11th Hull HB reformed as 545th Siege Battery

2nd Hull Heavy Battery later 124th heavy Battery

3rd Hull heavy battery later 146th Heavy Battery

The 4.7 inch guns would appear to have been issued in May 1915 at Hedon (1st Hull)

The battery appears to have consisted of relatively older men having trades or other skills , the majority come from one parish in Hull with a few Lincolnshire men from the south bank.

Thanks again all for your comments references and information.

Roop

[KONDOA]

In my previous reply I ommitted to welcome Charles (Joseph) to the forum. I am pleased he has at last found us and also finds the forum a benefit in his research.

Roop

[joseph]

Thanks Roop, Im sure it will get the grey cells moving, just hope the two of them dont collide.

Charles