Tom Morgan Posted 21 November , 2002 Share Posted 21 November , 2002 I've often read that the bolt-handle of the SMLE, being curved downwards, give the rifle an advantage as far as rapid fire is concerned. While trawling the web a couple of months ago, I read a reference to the SMLE. The article claimed that soldiers in WW1 were trained to fire their rifles with the middle finger, the thumb and first finger being kept on the bolt-handle. The article said that this method was used to enable a high rate of rapid fire to be maintained and to maximise the advantage offered by the downswept bolt-handle. Is there anyone with the appropriate manual who can confirm that this method of firing was actually taught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Brown Posted 21 November , 2002 Share Posted 21 November , 2002 I have a pocket sized Smalls Arm Manual from WW2. There is no mention of the above method in respect of the SMLE or the No. 4 rifles. I have read about this method years ago but I believe that it related to firing rom the hip in WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 21 November , 2002 Share Posted 21 November , 2002 Tom/Stuart I read a similar article which referred to commando forces in WW2 using the method described. The bolt was pushed forward but not locked down. The middle finger was used to pull the trigger but the thumb was kept in a stiff, upright position. The effect of this was that the gases from the propellant blew the bolt backwards on firing and then rebounded off the thumb. In effect this meant the weapon was self-loading. With practice, a high rate of fire could be obtained without having to work the bolt in the traditional manner. The thumb of course got a bit painful in the process. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Harland Posted 21 November , 2002 Share Posted 21 November , 2002 Unless the SMLE was rather different from those I have fired, I would imagine that there were a lot of commandos with no thumbs! Without locking the bolt there is nothing to restrain the energy from the cartridge being delivered through the bolt, as much as it is delivered behind the round travelling down the barrel. This would raise the risk of the disintergration of the base of the cartridge, either through the detonation of the cartridge or the action of the extractor claw, which would not allow a further round to enter the chamber, and thus stop all firing of the weapon. I would also rather doubt the recoil energy that a somewhat mangled thumb could impart to the bolt to make it carry forward and strip another round out of the magazine and into the chamber. It is, however, perfectly possible to use the bolt between the thumb and forefinger to lock the bolt in place and then operate the trigger with the middle finger. This would increase the rate of fire, as the right hand would not have to be moved, and the use of the middle finger may have been used in the 'mad minute' musketry of the original BEF. This would hold true for aimed fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 21 November , 2002 Share Posted 21 November , 2002 Not having the answer but in an attempt to upgrade my rank: The record for firing was held by an Australian soldier who could fire something like 30-40 rounds/min (incl. reloading) using the described method. Don’t know where I read it. A better attempt to upgrade the rate of fire was the introduction of the 20 round magazine No. I mark 4 of which 120.000 were issued in France in Aug. 1918, but that’s a different story. When you try it it makes sense to fire in the way described. With a Mauser (straight bolt) it can’t be done. In both rifles the bolthandle is approx. 9 cm. from the trigger when fully retracted, but in the Mauser bolt is in an upright position while in the SMLE it sticks out to the side. In the Mauser even a big handed fellow can’t keep his hand on the bolt and keep and a finger on the trigger. And even a giant would have difficulty firing the Mauser with is pinky finger since when closed the bolthandle of a Mauser is forward of the trigger (in the SMLE slightly backwards) which means you will need to make hand movements befitting a magician. I don’t know if my hands are small or not* but I just miss 1 cm when I try to keep my middle finger on the trigger while reloading a SMLE. I can image that with large hands this can be achieved and hence the great (if inaccurate) rate of fire. Regards, Marco *For the ladies on this forum: it has been scientifically proven that there is no correlation between the size of a man’s hand and the length of his ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 21 November , 2002 Share Posted 21 November , 2002 Marco As you typed four **** I take it that you mean "feet" or maybe even "neck." Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 22 November , 2002 Share Posted 22 November , 2002 'feet' of course, what else?? Myrtle, considering all our misunderstandings I think that we should meet on the former battlefields and discuss this over a cup of tea or something. Interesting (Tom noticed this first) that it is not possible to fully describe the actions of a SMLE on this forum since you can not describe the action which starts with a 'c' and ends with a 'k'.... Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 22 November , 2002 Share Posted 22 November , 2002 Marco Battlefield tea ! What a thought ! However I don't accept that you were defeated by finding a substitute for coq, as you were the one who managed in past postings to write "buegger" on the forum! (By the way I found this way of spelling "buegger" in a WW1 soldier's diary and yes he was from the north east.) Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 22 November , 2002 Share Posted 22 November , 2002 "Battlefield tea ! What a thought !" I will take that as a yes, looking forward to it! As for the 'b' word: I have my moments (but as a critic pointed out, not many of them and far in between). Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Furnell Posted 22 November , 2002 Share Posted 22 November , 2002 The action on a SMLE is very smooth and has a lot of what i would call spring. A slight tap on the bolt,up and slightly back,is enough to cause it to go fully back allowing another round to pop up out of the magazine,as long as it is well cleaned and oiled. It certainly helps in reloading quickly having not to pull the bolt back fully. It does half of the work for you. A marvellous rifle the Lee Enfield and still in use today. Regards. Simon Furnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 23 November , 2002 Share Posted 23 November , 2002 Tom, The use of the middle finger to pull the trigger is not according to WWI manuals. Musketry Regulations, Part I 1909 (reprinted 1914)--{My Copy} section 47 goes into great detail on the proper use of the Trigger Finger. In addition para 260 goes into detail concerning training in rapid firing with the trigger finger being used in its proper role. I'd be curious to find the primary source that was referenced on the Web. According official documents its hogwash. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 23 November , 2002 Share Posted 23 November , 2002 Not exactly related to the original post, but I recently had to spend some time in Calcutta and while at the airport I noticed a security guard was armed with a WW1 SMLE. We got into a conversation and he showed me it was dated 1918. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Brown Posted 23 November , 2002 Share Posted 23 November , 2002 Tom , I found these snippets on :- This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/RifleEnfield.htm. US discussion group. Page no longer present but searching with Google and clicking the cache I found:- One old method that is worth mentioning is to grasp the bolt with the thumb and trigger finger and never let it go. The trigger is then fired with the middle or (nasty finger). This is the fastest way to shoot a bolt rifle. It works best with a rifle that was designed for rapid fire, such as the N0 4 Enfield and also is best used in a Hawkins style prone position. An expert with an Enfield #4 Mk1 against an "expert" with a decent semi-auto? I wouldn't bet against the Enfield guy. If you think I'm joking, you haven't seen what an Enfield can do in the hands of someone who knows how to use one. Accuracy? Always a matter of gunsmithing and money... but speed? "Never underestimate the man with only one rifle" -- especially if it's an Enfield. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 23 November , 2002 Share Posted 23 November , 2002 I have followed with interest/curiosity the comments re. the S.M.L.E. having carted one around for nearly four years and fired it on occasions though a very long time ago, 43/47. I suppose it may have been possible to grip the stock with three fingers if you had hands the size of no. 4 shovels but taking first pressure may have not been so easy. I have a vague memory which tells me if you wanted to hit anything the rifle had to be held tight and pulled well into the shoulder, failure to do so meant a miss and a bruised shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 25 November , 2002 Share Posted 25 November , 2002 Tom, As previuosly posted your described method was not trained in WWI officially anyway. To see for myself I took my enfield out and fired about 150rds today using your described method and that of the Musketry Regs in a very un-scientific experiment. Lesson I learned is that your described method gave no advantage over that of the Musketry regs method. Unless one had super long thumbs the travel of the bolt required to extract the casing requires that the hand be removed from the small of the stock anyway. Nor did it appreciably give any greater speed, in fact I found it to be more clumbsy than the prescribed method. One aspect is that accuracy greatly suffered, your sight picture and ballance are upset and the trigger pull is more difficult with the middle finger . You can use the thumb fore finger method, but why? Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia Posted 25 November , 2002 Share Posted 25 November , 2002 I had the opportunity to see a SMLE with fixed bayonet in May and was amazed at the height. How big, preferably in feet, was the SMLE when the bayonet was fixed? If the average British recruit was between 5'4"-5'7", it had to be difficult to handle. Or perhaps it is just that I have never seen a rifle up close before, and it was overwhelming! How did the Bantams manage? Cynthia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 25 November , 2002 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2002 Cynthia, the SMLE's vital statistics are: Weight 8 lbs. 10 oz. Weight with Bayonet 9 lbs. 15 oz. Length 44.5 inches Length with bayonet 62 inches The Bantams had some difficulies with the rifle at first but a version was developed for them, with a slightly shorter butt. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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