J Banning Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 Hi all, I was wondering if anyone has a trench map of Gommecourt and Fonquevillers from pre 1 July 1916 which contains the British names for trenches (i.e. the secret maps)? Am hoping to get over there very soon and it would be of great help if anyone could scan and post a copy. Must buy some one of these days.... Croonaert - have sent you an email independently as you seem to be the man with the maps! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 Hi Ralph, I realise its out of your time interest, but if nothing transpires, search on Bucquoy or Puiseux on the archived forum, as there are a couple of threads that have maps from June/July 1918 that include the eastern edges of Gommecourt. They're probably not suitable, but if it turns out that's all there is available, they're better than nothing. doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 Try this site.... http://pathsofglory.co.uk/contents.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 5 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2005 That is Croonaert's site which I had a look on first of all. Unfortunately, the map I am looking for isn't on there! Agree, it's a great site though and have sat looking at the some of the maps for some time now. Must get back to work..... Thanks for the suggestion though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 That is Croonaert's site which I had a look on first of all. Unfortunately, the map I am looking for isn't on there! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll log a complaint with the webmaster. I think his site is pretty awesome too.... I love maps and the Great War so its a natural combination. Good luck in your search though... ultimately my suggestions in this area are very limited. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmac Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 Attached is a map showing the British trenches on the 56th Division's front south of Gommecourt overlaid on the Blue Series IGN map if this is any use. Haven't done the 46th Dvisional map yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 bmac.... could you explain the W50, W49, etc references? I assume the W trench names ties directly to this marking. (Similarly the Y sector). Also, I've often wondered how specific areas of the German trenches could be identified and have English names. For example, between roads 134 and 136 (on this image) there are Farmyard, Farmer, Farm, Fate, Fall, and Fame trenches. It seems highly specific for something that was at best seen through binoculars for quite some time. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 That is Croonaert's site which I had a look on first of all. Unfortunately, the map I am looking for isn't on there! Try it again, now. (Later date, but the trenches are practically the same as pre-July 1st) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmac Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 bmac.... could you explain the W50, W49, etc references? I assume the W trench names ties directly to this marking. (Similarly the Y sector). Also, I've often wondered how specific areas of the German trenches could be identified and have English names. For example, between roads 134 and 136 (on this image) there are Farmyard, Farmer, Farm, Fate, Fall, and Fame trenches. It seems highly specific for something that was at best seen through binoculars for quite some time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Andy, I believe each brigade sector had letter/number identifiers for the front line. Here, the front line was moved forward about 400 yards at the end of May. The W sector was the area from which the 168th Brigade attacked on July 1st (W48, 49 and 50) and the Y sector was the area used by 169th Brigade (Y47, 48 and 49). There were highly detailed aerial and panoramic photographs of the German lines available for everywhere. Each section of line was named and, in the case of the 56th Division attack, men took over name boards which they erected when a section of trench was taken. These could be seen from the British lines and the progress of the attack tracked. The topography of the land here was highly suitable for trench identification as all of the German lines up to an including their main support line (but except an area at the extreme right of the attack) were visible from the British lines. Given that the area is located in chalk subsoil, any digging threw up lines of white chalk spoil which gave away the trenches fairly easily. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 Bill - Thanks that explains a lot. Was it for simplicity then that the German trenches were named in groups of Fs and Es (in this image anyway)? It would seem that if the naming convention built on itself you could measure progress even better. For example if the front line trench was Farm, then Farmer, then Farmyard. I find this interesting because here in my neck of the woods the town has a similar structure. From a predesignated starting point streets progress alphabetically and by syllable. It sounds confusing, but its actually quite useful. If your on Eads St you know Fern St, Grant St, Hill St have to be next. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmac Posted 5 May , 2005 Share Posted 5 May , 2005 Andy, German trench names either side of Gommecourt on VII Corps' front were all given F names, going from Farm on the right edge of the attack (168th Brigde, 56th Division) around to Food, Fox, etc., on the left edge (139th Brigade, 46th Division). On the 56th Divisional front most communication trenches started with E (e.g. Elbe, Epte, Etch, Exe) whilst on the 46th Division's front they had river names (e.g. Oxus and Indus). To the right of and bordering the 56th Division the communication trenches started with A (e.g. Anna and Arun). Someone dreamt up this system though I am not sure who! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 5 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2005 Blimey, that was quick! Thanks ever so much all who helped with the info and explanation. All the answers I needed in time for tea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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