French Field punishments

[Peter A Barnes]

I am sure that most who saw the French film” A very long engagement” were impressed by the realistic scenes in the trenches, which I think portrayed the horrors of the War more vividly than any previous film. The plot hinges on the Field punishment imposed on five solders that are found guilty of self-mutilation and they are sent out into no-mans land, where they faced almost certain death. Did this form of punishment exist in the French army, as there is scant information on the web?

[kerry]

I too saw this film and I also think it provided a most vivid portrayal of the squalor and dreadful conditions of the front line. It also had a go at protraying the insensitivity and corruption of French military and civil service bureaucracy.

I guess the answer to your question is that from French official sources, you'll have to wait until 2017. But I'm sure more knowledgeable Pals will help you out.

I thought the dugouts were a bit roomy and well equipped - unless they were supposed to be in a captured German support line!

Kerry

[Gibbo]

Warning. There are mild spoilers to the plot in this posting.

I don't know if there's any historic basis to this form of punishment. However, I think that in the context of the film, the executions were unofficial. Remember that later in the film it emerged that President Poincare had reprieved the 5 men but that the General had torn up this order. Obviously he still wanted to execute them but had he put them in front of a firing squad, he was running a risk that he'd be accused of murder if it was discovered that he'd received the order reprieving them. Thus, I think that instead he sent them to almost certain death. Afterwards he had them put down as killed in action rather than executed.

As I said at the start, this is an interpretation of the events of the film, I've got no idea if this ever happened

[Landsturm]

Didn't u post this in Forum Axis History too? I was going to put this up in this forum too, but didn`t remember you were a member. I too am interest to receive answers in this...

[TD60]

Hello,

There were some articles there in France about it and the "historical

mistakes" of the film.

The commentary there was there are some 'little' mistakes but it

is nothing compared to the film qualities.

For the "execution" like this I read it happens realy but very few cases in 1915.

I suppose there was also the possibility to send inappreciated soldiers to "suicid" tasks, (...like did King David centuries ago)

Kerry,

I do not like your sentence

"It also had a go at protraying the insensitivity and corruption of French military and civil service bureaucracy."

Sounds like all French military and civil service bureaucracy were corrupted

and insensitivited.

First this is a too general sentence.

We saw also many of them who try to help the young lady to find trace of her promise and it was a very good job done after the war to try to help any family in their research.

Corrupted ? I do not remember that in the film. Who won money ?

There was probably some cases, but once again too general.

Insensitivited ?

The General is realy awfull. That is right.

However, about executions I wonder if it was so easy to say

to soldiers who self mutilated: Ok, you are now unable to fight, then go home.

What an exemple for the other soldiers !

We look at that with modern eyes and without the idea that our country

is really in danger.

Regards

[uncle bill]

maybe Kerry was talking about today's administration I read somewhere that this form of punishment was suggested in the first months of the war, somewhere around december 14 or early 15 and by none other than Pétain. I thought the film was a good parade of all the usual clichés, still enjoyed it though and it was interesting to see the after years and how people were affected, that part was realistic.

[TD60]

maybe Kerry was talking about today's administration 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok but I thought modern politic was to be out of this forum.

Therefore, no comment about this to avoid a post deletion

Regards

[Gibbo]

I'm currently reading "Paths of Glory - The French Army 1914-18" by Anthony Clayton. On page 97 in the paperback edition it says:

"On one occasion forty men with self-inflicted hand wounds were arrested. Petain immediately ordered twenty-five to be shot, but later directed that all be thrown into no-man's land for a night."

It reads to me as if these men had to spend only one night in no-man's land, which wasn't the case for those in the film.

Clayton doesn't give a date for this. It's in a chapter titled "1915 - Position Warfare " but in a section on "Life in the Trenches" that doesn't deal exclusively with 1915.

[Nathan Greenfield]

Interesting that the question of A VERY LONG ENGAGEMENT has come up here.

I just finished the novel, which was written by Sebastien Japrisot. As usual, the filmed version takes many liberties with the text: perhaps the most interesting being with the women who becomes a prostitute and kills -- in the scene with the crashing mirror -- the Officer who burned the reprieve. He's killed in the book too but not with as much Gallic aplumb. Also, in the book Mathilde is wheelchair bound -- and she even visits New York in search of an operation to cure her.

However interesting these points of departure are, what concerns us here is, of course, the execution. My greatest objection to Japrisot (and the film maker) is that the entire premise is ahistorical. Yes, there were cases of French soldiers mutilating themselves. Yes there were cases that such soldiers and others were ordered to be thrown into No-Man's-Land.

What is impossible is that the order would have been given by President Poincaire and that he would have then issued a reprieve -- and that a subluminary officer would have received it in time -- AND THEN BURNED IT. The French Army can be accused of many things and many injustices. What it cannot be accused of is violating not adhering to the sin-qua-non of bureauocracy. No French Officer would have burned an order from the President -- especially in front of the soldier deputized to deliver it. Indeed, it is almost impossible to think of an army where an officer would do so.

Another interesting thing about the book, the Newfoundland Regiment are the real heros.

Cheers,

Nathan