Rifleman FREDERICK KOTTMAN - KIA 01/09/1918

[Paul Johnson]

I dont know why I haven't thought to ask this question before, but here goes.

My Great Uncle was 678232 Rifleman Frederick KOTTMAN of the 21st London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles) KIA on 01/09/1918. He was born and lived in Stepney, East London where the family decended from for several generations both before and after his death. He enlisted in Stratford. East London but was drafted into the 21st London Regiment which seems to have been filled mainly by men from the Lambeth/Southwark area of South London. His service record has not survived but I wonder why he was not drafted into a more local Regiment such as the Stepney Rifles. The family are of German origin and I am not sure how much this influenced decision making by recruiters. Equally, I do not know if he volunteered or was conscripted.

I would like to try and understand why he was sent to this particular Regiment.

Any thoughts?

Regards

PAUL JOHNSON

[Paul Johnson]

Just bringing this back to the top of the pile as there was a post recently on men of German decent serving in the Middlesex Regiment.

Could this be the same?

Your views please.

Regards

PAUL JOHNSON

[Paul Reed]

Paul - his number is in a 21st London 'block' - do you have his MIC to post? Does it give another four figure number as well?

[Paul Johnson]

Hi Paul,

The MIC only shows his Regiment & Service number apart from the Roll details. There are no other entries and no four figure number.

Copy of the MIC is attached.

(P.S. Nice to meet you at the NA last week. Hope to see you again.)

Regards

PAUL JOHNSON

[Myrtle]

Paul

If your great uncle Frederick was the same person who was born in 1899 it would indicate that he was of British born parentage. The rule for men of German heritage being placed in "alien" battalions only appears to apply to those men whose fathers were born in Germany, Austria etc. Having a German surname was not enough reason for a man to be regarded by the authorities as an alien.

I would look at the possibility of Frederick having joined the 21st London Regiment because of chums from school or work having joined. I have had a quick look at those men with numbers alongside Frederick's and their names appear to be of non German origin.

Myrtle

[Jock Bruce]

Paul,

one thing to bear in mind is the medal records (by and large, like all rules there are exceptions) show the units a man served in after he went overseas, not all the units he served in from the time he enlisted. So the MIC doesn't neccessarily tell you what he joined.

The fact that only a 6-digit number is shown would indicate he went overseas sometime after the early '17 renumbering of TF soldiers. As the war progressed there was more and more movement between units and less and less connection between a man's place of origin and his unit - whichever unit needed men got them.

Jock

[Paul Johnson]

Myrtle/Jock,

Thank you for the responses. I am sure his service record would have helped sort out a few questions but, as I said, it has not survived. Myrtle, He was born in 1899 and his Grandfather was born in Germany. I am assuming (always a dangerous thing to do) that he joined the Army around his 18th birthday. The War Diary shows the arrival of replacements in April 1918 but, as you would expect, no details of who they were. He may well have arrived with the Battalion before or after this date I'm not sure, which is why I am looking for pointers.

As a point of interest, he was my Grandmother's brother. My Grandfather, who had been ejected from the Territorials in 1914 because of a Perforated Ear Drum, joined the RAF a short while after Fredericks' death and served with them until 1923.(This may have been due to family pressure). Although he saw service with both the Army & RAF he never received any campaign awards as he fell outside the criteria on both counts. A real shame.

Thanks again for your help.

PAUL J