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Remembered Today:

ID of the Blue Flash


Glengarry1950

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Good Afternoon Gentlemen and Ladies,

I have this Jacket; I know who it belongs to Pte Robert Bruce King's Own Scottish Borderers the Checkerboard Flash is of the 34th Brigade but has anyone a definitive answer for the Blue Flash, I was thinking may be a Battalion insignia within the brigade?

The soldiers service is joined 1903 Lucknow with 1st Bn, reenlisted 1914 Dublin with 2nd Bn entered theatre of War 15.8.1914 wounded at Arras, Transferred to 5th Bn and wounded at Gaza, my question also was he at Gallipoli with the 1/5th Bn.

Thank you for looking

Aye

Hiram

KOSB 34th Brigade Flash.jpg

Edited by Glengarry1950
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Hello Glengarry1950

The blue patch is one of two the Battalion patches worn by the 1/5th Batt when it joined the 34th Division in June 1918.

I've not figured out the dates of wear of the different patches , but I've seen photos of an inverted blue triangle above the div patch, worn on a tunic and a Brodie helmet,  and the upright rectangle, shown in your photo. Here's a link to an Illustration. AMOT999_WW1_AEHM.HIGHLAND.INFANTRY.2_0023 | The Ogilby Muster

William

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Hi William,

Thank you very much for this information it now makes a lot of sense and helps the providence of the jacket, unfortunately his service record has not survived. Still a bit more work to do to try and establish if he served at Gallipoli.

Once again thank you very much for your help and kind word.

Yours aye,

Hiram

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This post might be of interest to @poona guard, who has been making a long term study of such cloth badges.  He is currently preparing a publication covering the Territorial Force, having already published books on the Kitchener and Regular battalions.  Hopefully he might be able to help Hiram.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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20 hours ago, Glengarry1950 said:

Good Afternoon Gentlemen and Ladies,

I have this Jacket; I know who it belongs to Pte Robert Bruce King's Own Scottish Borderers the Checkerboard Flash is of the 34th Brigade but has anyone a definitive answer for the Blue Flash, I was thinking may be a Battalion insignia within the brigade?

The soldiers service is joined 1903 Lucknow with 1st Bn, reenlisted 1914 Dublin with 2nd Bn entered theatre of War 15.8.1914 wounded at Arras, Transferred to 5th Bn and wounded at Gaza, my question also was he at Gallipoli with the 1/5th Bn.

Thank you for looking

Aye

Hiram

KOSB 34th Brigade Flash.jpg

Hi Hiram,

it is ineed the 1st/5th KOSB. There is an example in their museum. As I am writing a book on the badges worn by the TF in the Great War please could I have a clear view of the shoulder to show title and cloth badges. I will of course acknowledge you in the book.

Best,

Dave (Poona Guard) BIlton

 

 

What was his service number?

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The AMOT link is interesting but not totally correct as 11th Warwicks was disbanded in Feb 1918 and never served with the 34th Division.

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Hello, could this battle patch seen on a jacket of a KOSB lieutenant be attributed to the 1/5 KOSB battalion?

Thanks 

Gérald

 

20240502_165459.jpg

20240502_165333.jpg

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4 hours ago, poona guard said:

 

What was his service number?

Hi poona,

He has three 8408, 9256, 201617 born 4.10.1884 but on 1911 Scotland's People census 1886, may have lied about age? 

Aye

Hiram

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19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

This post might be of interest to @poona guard, who has been making a long term study of such cloth badges.  He is currently preparing a publication covering the Territorial Force, having already published books on the Kitchener and Regular battalions.  Hopefully he might be able to help Hiram.

Thanks for your heads up, my friend.

Hiram

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14 minutes ago, Glengarry1950 said:

Thanks for your heads up, my friend.

Hiram

I’m glad to help Hiram, this thread has certainly drawn some interest and hopefully of use to poona guard’s research too. 👍

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Interested indeed. I have a cryptic note that officers of the 1st/5th wore a khaki edged blue triangle but can't remember where it came from. But yes, it is that battalion. Brilliant find. Murat, please can I use the photo in my book. I will of course acknowledge you.

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hello again

Unfortunatly I can,t find the original source of the photos I found on the net so here's a cropped version showing the insignia details, tunic and brodie helmet. From the position of the rivets, it shows either the front or rear.

If the latest shown tunic is 1/5th KOSB, the officers seem to have worn point up triangles?

William

xKOSB 34 div.jpg

1-5 KOSB 34 divxx.jpg

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The medal rolls say he was 8408 on 15.8.14 with 2 Bn. then 9256 with 1st/4th but there are two with the number 9256 then became 201617 with the 1st/5th probably after recovering from wounds - GSW abdomen and head so probably did not serve in Gallipoli as the 2nd Battalion were not there. His service numbers make little sense as he enlisted in 1903 and again in 1905 but went out with the 1903 number but both numbers are on his record. The third number is a 1917 number when the TF all were given 6 digit numbers.

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1 hour ago, poona guard said:

Interested indeed. I have a cryptic note that officers of the 1st/5th wore a khaki edged blue triangle but can't remember where it came from. But yes, it is that battalion. Brilliant find. Murat, please can I use the photo in my book. I will of course acknowledge you.

Of course, with pleasure
I can't wait to read your next book on battle patches
Gérald

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Poona guard

Unfortunatly the original photo wasn't of great quality, the shoulder insignia isn't in focus, and can't read it clearly, but you can see it's a straight title and not curved like other infantry units.

William

 

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1 hour ago, poona guard said:

Can anyone decipher the shoulder title?

I’m pretty sure it’s a standard KOSB title without the T and number.

IMG_4644.jpeg

IMG_4642.jpeg

IMG_4643.jpeg

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Good morning Gentlemen,

I can confirm the shoulder titles frogsmile illustrated are correct top for 1st or 2nd Battalion and the second 1/5 Bn regards the curved KOSB title they do exist but were only worn for a very short period of time  prior to WW1.

I can also confirm Robert Bruce was also a Piper in the Second Bn we have a nice photograph of him taken when he was in India, I will post it once I get back to my PC  this evening.

Thank you both William and frogsmile

aye

Hiram

 

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12 hours ago, Glengarry1950 said:

Good morning Gentlemen,

I can confirm the shoulder titles frogsmile illustrated are correct top for 1st or 2nd Battalion and the second 1/5 Bn regards the curved KOSB title they do exist but were only worn for a very short period of time  prior to WW1.

I can also confirm Robert Bruce was also a Piper in the Second Bn we have a nice photograph of him taken when he was in India, I will post it once I get back to my PC  this evening.

Thank you both William and frogsmile

aye

Hiram

 

Thanks Hiram.

For @poona guard - looking at Caladonia’s (William’s) photo clips of arm and shoulder again in the cold light of day, I believe I can see that the shoulder title did actually include a T and 5, but that this aspect has become obscured by blurring of that part of the photo.  With careful scrutiny it’s form above the block lettering can just about be discerned.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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20 hours ago, MURAT said:

Of course, with pleasure
I can't wait to read your next book on battle patches
Gérald

Thank you very much. Do you have any other uniforms with badges or photos of them being worn?

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On 11/06/2024 at 16:05, Glengarry1950 said:

Good Afternoon Gentlemen and Ladies,

I have this Jacket; I know who it belongs to Pte Robert Bruce King's Own Scottish Borderers the Checkerboard Flash is of the 34th Brigade but has anyone a definitive answer for the Blue Flash, I was thinking may be a Battalion insignia within the brigade?

The soldiers service is joined 1903 Lucknow with 1st Bn, reenlisted 1914 Dublin with 2nd Bn entered theatre of War 15.8.1914 wounded at Arras, Transferred to 5th Bn and wounded at Gaza, my question also was he at Gallipoli with the 1/5th Bn.

Thank you for looking

Aye

Hiram

KOSB 34th Brigade Flash.jpg

Please can I have a photo of the tunic showing the shoulder title please to use in my book on the TF?

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Hello again.

Here's the full photo of the tunic , as posted above, the full photos shows  British war medal and Victory medal ribbons, along with at least two maybe three blue service stripes, so presumably a late war, post war issue tunic?

Could the OP post a photo of his tunic in full, showing any other insignia which could perhaps help in dating it?

William

xKOSB 34 div.jpg

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Hi Poona guard,

Not a problem, the next time I am down at the museum, that will be in a few days, but definitely on the 24th of this month, I will take a few shots of the jacket and various bits in close up for your book, I completed my third book on the Regiment the last one was just for the Regimental Museum titled 'Cap Badges and Insignia of the King's Own Scottish Borderers and Associated Volunteer and Militia Units from 1689 until 2006 From the Regimental Museum Collection and others' ,bit of a long title I know, but I also took all the photographs and wrote it up, with lots of historical photos and interesting Appendix's.

Aye

Hiram  

 

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19 minutes ago, caladonia said:

Hello again.

Here's the full photo of the tunic , as posted above, the full photos shows  British war medal and Victory medal ribbons, along with at least two maybe three blue service stripes, so presumably a late war, post war issue tunic?

Could the OP post a photo of his tunic in full, showing any other insignia which could perhaps help in dating it?

William

xKOSB 34 div.jpg

The problem I am having with this set of badges is that there was no KOSB battalion in the Eastern Division in Germany, they were in the Lowland Division which didn't use the chequer board.

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