10844 Cpl D E Murray, E Lancs

[Michelle Young]

Was doing some work on casualties from Aubers/Festubert last night. Found this man buried at Fontaine Au Pire which is near Le Cateau, date of death 13/05/15. His CWGC papers say he was exhumed and gives a date of death as 26/08/14, then the date changes on another report. MIC says KIA but no date. I don’t have the relevant SDGW book to see what they said. 
So, is this man an admin error, or was he a POW? Any help appreciated. Thank you. Have looked on the Red Cross site but can’t see him, but I’m not the best at searching there! 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/324015/d-e-murray/

 

[PRC]

Soldiers Died in the Great War has 10844 Corporal David Ernest Murray Killed in Action on the 13th May 1915.

His MiC has him landing in France as a Private on the 22nd August 1914, but highest rank in a Theatre of War was Corporal - so going some if he died on the 26th.

I'm not spotting him in Casualty Lists in local newspapers before mid-June 1915.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Michelle Young]

If he was KIA 13th May 1915, what to on earth is he doing being buried near Le Cateau though? 

[charlie962]

His casualty was reported pretty promptly:

 

D E Murray

Killed

Rank CorporalService Number 10844 Regiment East Lancashire Regiment, 1st Battalion

CategoryNco's and Men

Daily List Date14th June 1915

Report Received Date28th May 1915

(Extract from genealogist)

[DavidOwen]

I see they were all exhumed for identification and he was then subsequently Identified as Murray - the original German burial of him had him unknown and quoting the 1914 date (see image CWGC below). Nothing on FMP re ICRC for him. Have you checked the other names on the CWGC Grave List to see if any of them were KIA in 1914? Could be an administrative error on the part of those compiling the lists.

[thetrenchrat22]

3 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Was doing some work on casualties from Aubers/Festubert last night. Found this man buried at Fontaine Au Pire which is near Le Cateau, date of death 13/05/15. His CWGC papers say he was exhumed and gives a date of death as 26/08/14, then the date changes on another report. MIC says KIA but no date. I don’t have the relevant SDGW book to see what they said. 
So, is this man an admin error, or was he a POW? Any help appreciated. Thank you. Have looked on the Red Cross site but can’t see him, but I’m not the best at searching there! 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/324015/d-e-murray/

 

I would say the date of death is an error, or the date of which was accepted for official records. 
 

where the 1st Battalion East Lancashire regiment on the 13th May 1915 

[Michelle Young]

They were in the Salient that day. 

[PRC]

One possibility - the wrong man has been identified.

Looking at the men of the 1st Battalion who died on the 26th August 1914, (26 individuals on CWGC according to Geoff's Search Engine), one was 10845 Private Richard Halstead.
Richard has no known grave and is remembered on the La-Ferte-Sous-Jouarre memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/878888/richard-halstead/

Looking at some of the others, 5653 Lance Corporal E. Dickinson has exactly the same style of exhumation report and much of the same detail as David Ernest Murray. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/323988/e-dickinson/

I'm sure there will be more but CWGC has just crashed.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 14 May by PRC
Typo

[Michelle Young]

Thank you Peter. I’m beginning to think that the wrong man has been identified as well. I’m not sure how to proceed with this. 

[MelPack]

An interesting case. As you say, Cpl David Ernest Murray KIA on 13 May 1915 in the Salient could not have possibly been buried at Le Cateau.

The Exhumation Report confirms that the remains were found with Corporal's stripes.

The only Corporal for the Battalion KIA on 26 August 1914 is Corporal William George Lock 10170 with no known grave and commemorated on the La Ferte- Sous - Jouarre Memorial:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/879513/william-george-lock/

Definitely a misidentification caused by the service number recovered from the trousers (very unusual).

Edited 15 May by MelPack

[Michelle Young]

Thanks Mel,

How would I go about getting this changed, I’ve no experience with this kind of thing. 

[MelPack]

It would be a matter of compiling a detailed report confirming the date of Murray's death with reference to all the sources such as Soldier's Effects, SDGW and Pension Records and the location of the Battalion at his date of death as per the Battalion's War Diary thereby eliminating him as the occupier of the grave.

The second part is to demonstrate that Lock is the only possible candidate for the grave by reason of there being no other KIA Corporal for the Battalion in that time period and location.

I have also noticed that an Unknown East Lancs Serjeant appears on the same GRRF. There was only one Battalion Serjeant killed in this period who is also commemorated on the La Ferte Memorial - Serjeant Thomas Nevin https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/723421/thomas-nevin/

I have had a quick look at the 1stBn Somerset Light Infantry and the RSM and two Serjeants KIA in the same location have known graves.

I think that you have opened up a proverbial can of worms. The records of this cemetery are definitely worth a detailed review by the grave identification enthusiasts - take that as an invitation to help out Michelle.

[PRC]

@MelPack - I've no experience in this area but could there be some initial mileage in approaching the CWGC  based on comparing the exhumation report for the unknown East Lancs Corporal 10844 with the near identical one for unknown East Lancs Private 5652 who turned out to be Private E. Dickinson.

Image courtesy of CWGC.

I'm just thinking it might be a quick and simple way to remedy the situation - and if that gets knocked back then go for the more detailed approach.

Cheers,
Peter

[MelPack]

Peter

I don't think that would take the case any further forward. The Exhumation Reports are identical but the service number on the trousers actually coincide with the actual date of death of Dickson - as opposed to Murray who died months later in Belgium. The curiosity here is how a soldier managed to get into trousers belonging to another soldier (in a manner of speaking). Discussions about the  transposition of numbered kit normally concerns spoons.

[DavidOwen]

Either the Germans buried a man killed far away in the wrong grave or two men had accidentally (or deliberately) exchanged trousers. Which might be the more likely?

[PRC]

11 minutes ago, MelPack said:

I don't think that would take the case any further forward. The Exhumation Reports are identical but the service number on the trousers actually coincide with the actual date of death of Dickson

Unless unknown 10844 was actually unknown 10845 - Richard Halstead who did die on the same day as Dickinson.

If 10844 David Ernest Murray hadn't died in 1915 I suspect the error would have been picked up at the time.

Cheers,
Peter

[DavidOwen]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

Unless unknown 10844 was actually unknown 10845 - Richard Halstead who did die on the same day as Dickinson.

If 10844 David Ernest Murray hadn't died in 1915 I suspect the error would have been picked up at the time.

Cheers,
Peter

Eay to miss type a 4 for a 5... but the corporal stripes?

[PRC]

Just now, DavidOwen said:

but the corporal stripes?

Who knows what had happened in the intervening few days since they had landed or where the Corporals stripes were found - on his jacket is one thing but if he was wrapped in someone elses great-coat? Would such a promotion necessarily have made it as far as the records office if the officer bumping him up had been killed, wounded or captured. Personally speaking I wouldn't see it as a showstopper to making an initial enquiry as something is clearly wrong.

But other than getting entries amended on the CWGC database & non-comms I don't have any direct experience of getting this sort of correction implemented, so happy to be put back in my box

BTW - has anyone checked the Battalion War Diary for the casualties of 26th August 1914 in case there are any Corporals \ Lance Corporals who turn up on CWGC as Privates.

Cheers,
Peter

[DavidOwen]

Looking at war diary now - Bn was hammered on 26th August 1914 but no mention of names of ORs - lost 250+

[DavidOwen]

The war diary has a map showing the location of the Bn during the time Murray is recorded as KIA (Image courtesy TNA)

[PRC]

4 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

Looking at war diary now - Bn was hammered on 26th August 1914 but no mention of names of ORs - lost 250+

Interesting - just checked again and the 1st Battalion fatalities in the 26th on CWGC is definately 24. Were the rest taken prisoner or does that include wounded?

Just thinking there might be some returned prisoner interviews in the National Archive catalogue that might shed some light.

Cheers,
Peter

[jay dubaya]

I'm playing catch up here and have just pulled all the Special Exhumation Reports for this cemetery... definately a can of worms and just to muddy the water even further here's 10854 East Lancs and two East Lancs officers one who was wrapped in a Warwickshire Rgt great coat, the only officer I can find killed between 20th and 30th August 1914 is Lt Chisholm purported to be buried in Ligny-en-Cambresis. Also looking at ICRC records most of the East Lancs reported as killed on 26th have cards. I'll be ablre to have a better look at this later

(images courtesy of CWGC)

Edited 15 May by jay dubaya

[Michelle Young]

Thanks to everyone who is running with this. I’ve been out all afternoon and am only just catching up. 

[DavidOwen]

Casualty list from war diary for 26th August 1914 (courtesy FMP)

[jay dubaya]

Of the 44 Special Exhumations at Fontain-au-Pire, six were identified as East Lancs. by various regimental insignia plus the following. Murray (clearly not him) by Cpl. stripes and 10844 on trousers. Dickinson by 5652 on trousers. 7677 and 10854 on boots (I haven't found a match for these with the East Lancs). Lieut. by two stars on sleeve and 2nd Lieut. by one star on sleeve. The remaining 38 are a mixture of Lancs. Fusilisers, Somersets, Rifle Bde. and Warwicks with a small number of others. Similar identifications were made with these although a small two still had their small books. (I haven't yet checked how many were positively identified from this larger group).

The two officers are perplexing and I've noted the ranks of those officers taken prisoner.  I've located 19 ICRC cards which includes those officers mentioned in the diary plus a small number of others that appear to have been repatriated. I'm not familiar with the NA PoW records and my first attempt proved fruitless. Delving a little deeper into Lieut. Chisholm, reported killed on 27th August, but this only opens another can of worms at Ligny-en-Cambresis and the mass grave that contained his remains and 31 others including more East Lancs with dates of death as 15th January 1915. 

11 hours ago, MelPack said:

The curiosity here is how a soldier managed to get into trousers belonging to another soldier (in a manner of speaking). Discussions about the  transposition of numbered kit normally concerns spoons.

A case we are currently have under appeal draws great attention to this and identifications made from portable items. Literally anything could be swapped, borrowed or stolen. Items were likely marked with numbers to protect ownership and not to prove an identity in their demise. The process of identifying a single name from pieces numbered kit is suspect with may instances and  is seen here with Murray who was clearly killed hundreds of miles away and several months later. 

Whilst removing Murray's name from the headstone can be plausably expalined assingning another name is frought with difficulty. There appears ample evidence to possibly suggest ranks had been buried with officers tunics and in one case an officer wrapped in an overcoat sporting Warwickshire numerals. Dickinson was also identified by uniform - general service, but no L/Cpl. stipes.  This somewhat makes a great obsticle to proceed much further with this case. These all present a great obsticle in presenting an alternative name for the grave and as such will be difficult to proceed without further evidence... I haven't given in yet though.

J