Incorrect name on Death Plaque

[Maurice C]

This is my first post so I hope I`m in the right area. I`ve recently obtained a death plaque named to a Eustace Edward Clements. The CWGC and other sources have his name as Eustace Edwin Clements. Forgive me for asking but how unusual is it for Death plaques to carry the incorrect name? I would be very grateful for any information. I`ve searched previous posts and I`m in no doubt that it does happen.

The two brothers were lost within a month of each other. 

Also I was planning to go back and clean the headstone. Before I ask CWGC, could anyone tell me if this is allowed? I would only use soap and water.

Thank You Maurice

[Bob Davies]

Welcome to the Great War Forum Maurice, 

you are certainly in the right area, I am confident that others will be along soon to help you.

Very unfortunate for him to be killed on the last day of the war.

Best Wishes, Bob.

[Maurice C]

9 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Welcome to the Great War Forum Maurice, 

you are certainly in the right area, I am confident that others will be along soon to help you.

Very unfortunate for him to be killed on the last day of the war.

Best Wishes, Bob.

Thank You Bob. Yes he died as a result of wounds gas on 12/11/18 his brother just a month before, I presume as a prisoner of war as he is buried in Berlin Southern cemetery. 

[mancpal]

Maurice,

Did you obtain the plaque from the Clements family? There was more than one soldier of this surname with the initials E.E. which begs the question is the plaque connected to another man? The CWGC commemorate a man of the Bedfordshire Regiment with the same name and initials so it is possible that your plaque and the headstone you show are different men. There is another who served with the Norfolks though suspect he survived

Simon

Edited 8 May by mancpal

[rolt968]

I may have come across a death plaque with an error in the name. I met a lady who had a death plaque for a relative whose surname was Low. The surname on the death plaque was spelled "Lowe". She could not be sure that it was not the death plaque for someone else who did spell their name that way. She went away to investigate further and I ave not heard anything more.

RM

[corisande]

This service record is on Ancestry - click

He enlisted as Eustace Edward Clements. And signed is enlistment form thus

He was born Eustace Edwin Clements - Gro

But died as Eustace Edwin Clements on CWGC

So for some reason he used Edward and not Edwin on enlisting. It is not a istranscription, he signed as Edward

Edited 8 May by corisande

[Maurice C]

16 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Maurice,

Did you obtain the plaque from the Clements family? There was more than one soldier of this surname with the initials E.E. which begs the question is the plaque connected to another man? The CWGC commemorate a man of the Bedfordshire Regiment with the same name and initials so it is possible that your plaque and the headstone you show are different men. There is another who served with the Norfolks though suspect he survived

Simon

Thanks Simon. I thought of that at first but I know that Eustace the first name is correct from the records of the internment, and The last Clements also correct, just the middle name. I can only find one casualty with with the name Eustace Clements. Im almost sure it would have to be the same man.  Also the plaque was obtained in Warwickshire and the Grave is in Rugy cemetery which sort of fits. I saw the other casualty you refer to but although he is listed as E E Clements the date of his death wouldn`t relate to that on the headstone.

7 minutes ago, corisande said:

This service record is on Ancestry - click

He enlisted as Eustace Edward Clements. And signed is enlistment form thus

 

Thank You

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, Maurice C said:

Thank You Bob. Yes he died as a result of wounds gas on 12/11/18 his brother just a month before, I presume as a prisoner of war as he is buried in Berlin Southern cemetery. 

My pleasure Maurice,

you might find his brother in this link somewhere?

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search#/3/2/224/0/British and Commonwealth/Military/Clements

[Knotty]

3 hours ago, Maurice C said:

Also I was planning to go back and clean the headstone. Before I ask CWGC, could anyone tell me if this is allowed? I would only use soap and water.

Hi Maurice

Whilst they wouldn’t give you permission as they prefer their local volunteers to carryout cleaning, if you were to, just use water and a stiff brush. Any detergents/soap has a detrimental effect to the surface.            If it hasn’t been cleaned for a while I’m sure the CWGC would appreciate a local volunteer.

John (a CWGC volunteer)

[mancpal]

John, 

I’m interested in the cleaning process as I don’t remember coming across the matter before. Would I be correct in thinking something like a bristle nail brush would be better than say a floor scrubbing brush? I base this on their being more bristles per inch and them being finer which would get at more of the grime trapped in the grain of the stone. I realise this would take longer of course. 
I’m a little surprised there isn’t a conservation cleaning product available, surely they don’t clean listed buildings and monuments with simply a brush and water?

Simon

[Knotty]

44 minutes ago, mancpal said:

I’m interested in the cleaning process

Hi Simon, 

A couple or three years ago when I started we had a days instruction course on how to clean. The brush is a normal bristle floor scrubbing brush which we were issued with, for my sins I also carry around a nail brush, for the reasons you mentioned, grime, but the ethos is to keep clean, but let the stone weather naturally. Unfortunately there are good meaning people but the one using a dremmel to clean the names on headstones, created more damage than good, hence the CWGC has very strict code of practice.

The use of water was and still is an issue, as some cemeteries/churchyards do not have taps for supply, so initially it was a case of carrying around and using out of a (plastic)bottle until we were issued with a buckets to save waste.😁.
When it comes to cleaning products, there is a litany of stories about what has happened when xy or z have been applied, so as a general rule if it won’t come of with brush and water then it gets reported to the relevant CWGC maintenance team who do have several different “environmental” cleaning products to tackle  problems. Lichen is probably the biggest culprit here as in some instances it is protected species and again the teams are trained to identify and either leave or remove.

As I eluded to, we had a days course, the instruction manual of do’s and don’ts is about 40 pages, and that’s added to the 20 page booklet on the various types of monuments /headstones, and I haven’t added  on the bit about private memorials😁In all when you “clean” a headstone or a group you have a minimum of 3 pages to fill out plus a photo(s) if you think that it needs further work or replacing.
Hope that hasn’t bored you to much.

John

[depaor01]

2 hours ago, Knotty said:

Hi Simon, 

A couple or three years ago when I started we had a days instruction course on how to clean. The brush is a normal bristle floor scrubbing brush which we were issued with, for my sins I also carry around a nail brush, for the reasons you mentioned, grime, but the ethos is to keep clean, but let the stone weather naturally. Unfortunately there are good meaning people but the one using a dremmel to clean the names on headstones, created more damage than good, hence the CWGC has very strict code of practice.

The use of water was and still is an issue, as some cemeteries/churchyards do not have taps for supply, so initially it was a case of carrying around and using out of a (plastic)bottle until we were issued with a buckets to save waste.😁.
When it comes to cleaning products, there is a litany of stories about what has happened when xy or z have been applied, so as a general rule if it won’t come of with brush and water then it gets reported to the relevant CWGC maintenance team who do have several different “environmental” cleaning products to tackle  problems. Lichen is probably the biggest culprit here as in some instances it is protected species and again the teams are trained to identify and either leave or remove.

As I eluded to, we had a days course, the instruction manual of do’s and don’ts is about 40 pages, and that’s added to the 20 page booklet on the various types of monuments /headstones, and I haven’t added  on the bit about private memorials😁In all when you “clean” a headstone or a group you have a minimum of 3 pages to fill out plus a photo(s) if you think that it needs further work or replacing.
Hope that hasn’t bored you to much.

John

Very interesting insight. Thanks for sharing. 

Dave

[TullochArd]

8 hours ago, Maurice C said:

Thank You Bob. Yes he died as a result of wounds gas on 12/11/18 his brother just a month before, I presume as a prisoner of war as he is buried in Berlin Southern cemetery. 

Great work Maurice C.  Attached is E.E.'s Medical Report. He was transferred to the Labour Corps on recovery from a GSW received in June 1917.......I tried: but I could not find any reference to the gas you mention.  His brother, Frederick C. was indeed a PW and it appears died of a similar condition (Lungenentzündung)

[mancpal]

Thanks John,

I’m grateful for your informative reply. 
I’d imagined algae would be a problem, there must be CWGC graves (I’m thinking UK) where over a hundred years the surrounding saplings have grown enormously thus shielding the headstone from years of sunlight. I also didn’t realise that some forms of algae were protected (and I’m delighted they are). 
Anyway, let’s return to the topic !

Simon

[TEW]

Can I ask why he is recorded as being RFA when he died while with Labour Corps? Is there a CWGC protocol.

TEW

[Maurice C]

18 hours ago, Knotty said:

Hi Maurice

Whilst they wouldn’t give you permission as they prefer their local volunteers to carryout cleaning, if you were to, just use water and a stiff brush. Any detergents/soap has a detrimental effect to the surface.            If it hasn’t been cleaned for a while I’m sure the CWGC would appreciate a local volunteer.

John (a CWGC volunteer)

Thank You thats great

12 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Great work Maurice C.  Attached is E.E.'s Medical Report. He was transferred to the Labour Corps on recovery from a GSW received in June 1917.......I tried: but I could not find any reference to the gas you mention.  His brother, Frederick C. was indeed a PW and it appears died of a similar condition (Lungenentzündung)

Thats wonderful information Thank You

[Maurice C]

1 hour ago, TEW said:

Can I ask why he is recorded as being RFA when he died while with Labour Corps? Is there a CWGC protocol.

TEW

interesting. I wonder if his parent Regiment took precedence 

[Maurice C]

12 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Great work Maurice C.  Attached is E.E.'s Medical Report. He was transferred to the Labour Corps on recovery from a GSW received in June 1917.......I tried: but I could not find any reference to the gas you mention.  His brother, Frederick C. was indeed a PW and it appears died of a similar condition (Lungenentzündung)

This is on CWGC I could suppose the pneumonia might be as a result of previous lung damage from gas?

[Maurice C]

16 hours ago, Knotty said:

Hi Simon, 

A couple or three years ago when I started we had a days instruction course on how to clean. The brush is a normal bristle floor scrubbing brush which we were issued with, for my sins I also carry around a nail brush, for the reasons you mentioned, grime, but the ethos is to keep clean, but let the stone weather naturally. Unfortunately there are good meaning people but the one using a dremmel to clean the names on headstones, created more damage than good, hence the CWGC has very strict code of practice.

The use of water was and still is an issue, as some cemeteries/churchyards do not have taps for supply, so initially it was a case of carrying around and using out of a (plastic)bottle until we were issued with a buckets to save waste.😁.
When it comes to cleaning products, there is a litany of stories about what has happened when xy or z have been applied, so as a general rule if it won’t come of with brush and water then it gets reported to the relevant CWGC maintenance team who do have several different “environmental” cleaning products to tackle  problems. Lichen is probably the biggest culprit here as in some instances it is protected species and again the teams are trained to identify and either leave or remove.

As I eluded to, we had a days course, the instruction manual of do’s and don’ts is about 40 pages, and that’s added to the 20 page booklet on the various types of monuments /headstones, and I haven’t added  on the bit about private memorials😁In all when you “clean” a headstone or a group you have a minimum of 3 pages to fill out plus a photo(s) if you think that it needs further work or replacing.
Hope that hasn’t bored you to much.

John

Thank You. As an aside, I noticed a CWGC headstone whilst looking for this one which looked like it had been attacked by a corrosive substance. The name, number and Regimental badge were barely legible. Should I report it do you think?

[Knotty]

11 minutes ago, Maurice C said:

Should I report it do you think?

It won’t hurt to contact the CWGC, they may already know about its state and awaiting a replacement stone from Beaurains in France where they are produced, if not they can ask a local volunteer to give it a once over and report back, commonly known as officialdom😁

[TullochArd]

11 hours ago, TEW said:

Can I ask why he is recorded as being RFA when he died while with Labour Corps? Is there a CWGC protocol.

TEW

There is a protocol TEW but I believe it pre-dates the IWGC/CWGC. I cannot quote chapter and verse at the moment but I recall mention of  Labour Corps memorandum doing the rounds in early 1918 stateing that soldiers transferred to the Labour Corps, most importantly due to wounds, wished to retain their unit identity in the form of their former parent cap badges - the caveat offered that they would wear LC shoulder titles. Although nothing happened with this I believe the same protocol actually materialised for naming on the medals of similarly transferred soldiers. The gravestone reference is perhaps a logical extension of this. I stand by to be corrected!

Edited 9 May by TullochArd

[TullochArd]

10 hours ago, Maurice C said:

This is on CWGC I could suppose the pneumonia might be as a result of previous lung damage from gas?

Seems likely.  I revisited the SR and this rather suspect image came up which could certainly support the reference to gas.  

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, TullochArd said:

There is a protocol TEW but I believe it pre-dates the IWGC/CWGC. I cannot quote chapter and verse at the moment but I recall mention of  Labour Corps memorandum doing the rounds in early 1918 stateing that soldiers transferred to the Labour Corps, most importantly due to wounds, wished to retain their unit identity in the form of their former parent cap badges - the caveat offered that they would wear LC shoulder titles. Although nothing happened with this I believe the same protocol actually materialised for naming on the medals of similarly transferred soldiers. The gravestone reference is perhaps a logical extension of this. I stand by to be corrected!

I would love to see the protocol document referred to.

I have previously asked CWGC about the protocol / their protocol for Labour Corps men when previously in another corps [and also for men attached away from their parent unit] ... and I have not received a full reply [Thus joining a long list of other enquiries that the CWGC haven't fully answered for me - thanks for reminding me to chase them.]

M

[Matlock1418]

At WFA/Fold3 a pension index card for Edward E CLEMENTS [the second E is struck-through], 6694612, Labour Corps records his death 12.11.18 as being from, Pneumonia

Another PIC refers to Edward E CLEMENTS

M

 

[Ray Tomlinson]

On 08/05/2024 at 15:53, mancpal said:

John, 

 ………… surely they don’t clean listed buildings and monuments with simply a brush and water?

Simon

Correct. Nowadays just water! Back in the day; I remember when they cleaned Manchester Town Hall back in the 70s, they would use high pressure hoses and corrosive chemicals but then realised that this was removing more of the stone than the dirt. So, nowadays, it’s simply a matter of soaking off the grot.