Deserter betrayed attack 2nd South Staffs February 1917

[wulsten]

Looking at the 2nd battalion war diary and a planned action near Courcelette 17th February 1917, the blame for high casualties appears to be blamed on a deserter giving prior warning to the German troops.

Would this be likely and could his identity have been known and any consequences post return???

Edited 7 May by wulsten

[stevenbecker]

Then again it could be an officer covering his rear Area because of bad planning.

Does war diary say who it might be, were the Germans in our trenches before hand or any men MIA around that time?

If correct does he know who that maybe when writing?

[brianmorris547]

I have not read the reports in the WDs of 2 Div but there are reports by Col Dawes of the S Staffords and Brigadier Gen Walsh in the WDs of 6 Infantry Brigade. I could not see any reference to a deserter being responsible for the failure. 

Brian

[wulsten]

6 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

I have not read the reports in the WDs of 2 Div but there are reports by Col Dawes of the S Staffords and Brigadier Gen Walsh in the WDs of 6 Infantry Brigade. I could not see any reference to a deserter being responsible for the failure. 

Brian

The above image is from 6bde 2nd South Staffs war diary February 1917

[brianmorris547]

2 hours ago, wulsten said:

The above image is from 6bde 2nd South Staffs war diary February 1917

Wulsten

I only looked at the notes attached to the February WD of 6 IB. I was looking for corroboration but I will look further and also in the 2 Div papers . 

Brian

[wulsten]

4 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Wulsten

I only looked at the notes attached to the February WD of 6 IB. I was looking for corroboration but I will look further and also in the 2 Div papers . 

Brian

Brian, it appears to be one note after the initial report on the attack 17/2/178

[brianmorris547]

Yes

I saw the typed note by the GOC 2 Div to the BG 6 IB in the WD of 2 S Staffords, which you posted, but I could not find the report to the GOC in the WD of 6 IB. The WD of 2 Div Div HQ has Daily Intell Reports which indicate that a German Trench Raid prior to 17/02 may have taken two prisoners and the WD of 2 Div A&QMG has Daily Lists which do not show any 2 S Staffs as Missing EDIT before 17/02. There are three pages for 17/02 and a note that reads See Report 19/02. This reports shows 2/Lt W W Wright - Missing 17/02/1917 but it would appear to be a battle casualty.

The Deserter may not have been from that Bn however.

Brian

Edited 9 May by brianmorris547
additional info

[charlie2]

Lt Hasselmann of Füsilier Regiment 86 took a prisoner during the night of 16th/17th who had „lost his way“ the prisoner said that a brigade strength attack would take place in the morning. There is no mention of the prisoners regiment. 
Charlie

 

[horatio2]

On 07/05/2024 at 10:01, wulsten said:

Looking at the 2nd battalion war diary and a planned action near Courcelette 17th February 1917, the blame for high casualties appears to be blamed on a deserter giving prior warning to the German troops.

This 'deserter' theory had wide impact. On 27 February a Court of Enquiry was convened by GOC 63rd (Royal Naval) Division, General Lawrie, to investigate whether any deserters from 1/RMLI, Howe or Anson Battalions could have passed information to the Germans before the RND's 17 February attack towards Miraumont.  GOC Fifth Army had ordered a widespread investigation into this possibility.  The Court found no evidence to implicate men of the three battalions.

More detail can be found in Len Sellers' "RND" p.1328 - 1336.

Edited 9 May by horatio2

[FROGSMILE]

There’s no doubt that during the war such incidents of loose mouths took place and we would be extremely naive to think otherwise.  Surviving German records have not been very widely probed by English speaking historians, but in the case of one particular British author, who did carry out such research in connection with the 1st July 1916 offensive (Peter Barton), he did find several cases of varying ranks complete with names and regiments.  The same applied to captured German personnel of course.  In both cases keeping intelligence staffs busy earning their keep.

Edited 9 May by FROGSMILE

[wulsten]

8 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Lt Hasselmann of Füsilier Regiment 86 took a prisoner during the night of 16th/17th who had „lost his way“ the prisoner said that a brigade strength attack would take place in the morning. There is no mention of the prisoners regiment. 
Charlie

 

Charlie thank you certainly interesting and food for thought

8 hours ago, horatio2 said:

This 'deserter' theory had wide impact. On 27 February a Court of Enquiry was convened by GOC 63rd (Royal Naval) Division, General Lawrie, to investigate whether any deserters from 1/RMLI, Howe or Anson Battalions could have passed information to the Germans before the RND's 17 February attack towards Miraumont.  GOC Fifth Army had ordered a widespread investigation into this possibility.  The Court found no evidence to implicate men of the three battalions.

More detail can be found in Len Sellers' "RND" p.1328 - 1336.

Thankyou

[wulsten]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s no doubt that during the war such incidents of loose mouths took place and we would be extremely naive to think otherwise.  Surviving German records have not been very widely probed by English speaking historians, but in the case of one particular British author, who did carry out such research in connection with the 1st July 1916 offensive (Peter Barton), he did find several cases of varying ranks complete with names and regiments.  The same applied to captured German personnel of course.  In both cases keeping intelligence staffs busy earning their keep.

I believe the North Staffs attack at Gommecourt also suffered due to information disclosed by a pow