Eoin Gallacher Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May Hello, Could anyone help me Identify this man. He is mentioned in a few newspapers, yet always just as "J. Brown" Morpeth Herald 24/5/1918 Many thanks, Eoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 4 May Admin Share Posted 4 May There appears to be a number of possibilities, any more info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May Eoin, from the newspaper heading am I right in thinking Barrington is a village/hamlet in the Morpeth area? The following is pure guess work. If Barrington is a smallish place then the name Brown may appear in parish records, census returns etc. I’m taking a slightly stereotypical stance but as a captain I assume he came from at least a middle class family, perhaps local grammar schools may have archive material or even a healthy old-boys association which may mention reunion dinners and the like. I’ve no idea if this helps even remotely. Some years ago I was tasked with finding a J.Brown from Oldham with nothing but his name to go on. The saving grace being his award of a DCM for bringing in wounded and re-establishing the aid post that had been shelled. I wouldn’t have picked up on it but more knowledgeable members found him quickly so I’d say you’re in the right place! Good luck with your search. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 4 May Author Share Posted 4 May (edited) cheers! Barrington colliery was just outside of Bedlington (not far from Morpeth). I have also found this that also mentions Captain J Brown. Morpeth Herald 10/1/1919 many thanks, Eoin Edited 4 May by Eoin Gallacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 4 May Author Share Posted 4 May found this: Blyth News - 17th December 1936 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 4 May Author Share Posted 4 May (edited) Another one! Edited 4 May by Eoin Gallacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May 21 minutes ago, Eoin Gallacher said: Does that not say Capt. Brown, M.C. Barrington? Surely a M.C. is a route in now. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 4 May Author Share Posted 4 May Yes so does the one about the gathering after the war: I but I’m not sure where to go from there. Eoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May 2 minutes ago, Eoin Gallacher said: I but I’m not sure where to go from there. Not me either - The London Gazette is a challenge but one place that might perhaps offer a glimmer of hope - I'm starting with John, then James, then .... ? As has been said before above ... we need more a knowledgeable member(s) to help out now with such an award M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 4 May Author Share Posted 4 May I have found this about a Sgt. J Brown being wounded on Fold3 - possibly him before promotion to 2/Lt? Also the Newspaper clipping is from the Morpeth Herald 19/5/1916 (I assume it is the same Sgt. J. Brown?) Eoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May (edited) How about this officer? SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 1 FEBRUARY, 1919 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 7 NOVEMBER, 1918 AWARDED THE MILITARY CROSS. ... T./2nd Lt. (actg. Capt.) Joseph Brown, North'd Fus. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty when in command of fighting patrols. At great personal risk he had previously made daylight reconnaissance of the ground over which he proposed to operate. He carried out the scheme with great brilliance and set a fine example to the men. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31158/supplement/1646 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30997/supplement/13148 I think that would seem to just fit between the 1918 and especially the 1919 newspaper article dates M Edited 4 May by Matlock1418 strike and corrections - see below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 4 May Author Share Posted 4 May (edited) That's a good start! Joseph also fits as the there was a Joseph Brown, born 1891, living at 5 Office Row, Barrington Colliery, he was also a Coal Miner. Edit: Also the Sgt. J Brown was wounded on the Somme - which matches with the first newspaper clipping. Eoin Edited 5 May by Eoin Gallacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May (edited) From the Morpeth Herald of 25 August 1916, a mention of a Private J Brown from Barrington being wounded, so possibly the same man. ... iigton, wouided. Pte. W. Jacobs; Blytn, missing. Private T. K. baunders. Hirst, wounded. Private A. Brown, Choppington, wounded. Private J. Brown, Barrington, wounded. Private W. Ashworth, Earsddn, missing. Private R. W. Goe, Ashingion, missing. Sergt. L ... The citation for his MC seems to have been published at least twice in the Gazette, as there is an earlier version to the one Matlock1418 found, published in the Gazette of 7 November 1918. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30997/supplement/13148 There is also a possible commissioning with the Northumberland Fusiliers on 26 April 1917. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30082/supplement/4930 That commissioning date then places him with the 25th (Service) (2nd Tyneside Irish) Battalion in the August 1918 British Army list. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/120463602 Edited 5 May by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May (edited) 8 minutes ago, Tawhiri said: The citation for his MC seems to have been published at least twice in the Gazette, as there is an earlier version to the one Matlock1418 found, published in the Gazette of 7 November 1918. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30997/supplement/13148 I am glad somebody is checking - In error I had earlier grabbed & pasted the wrong date and link off another LG page I had open Edit: Now corrected above https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30997/supplement/13148 it was ... and that would fit with my comment about fitting inside the the 1919 newspaper date! [said trying to squirm out of embarassment] M Edited 4 May by Matlock1418 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May (edited) All good, everybody just chips in as needed. It also made the local newspaper, from the Newcastle Journal of 9 November 1918: High Praise for Local Officer ... High Praise for Local Officer. The Military Cross has been awarded bo Temp. Second-Lieutenant (acting Captain) Joseph Brown, Northumberland Fusiliers. —For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty when, in command of fighting patrols. At great personal ... I was hoping there might be something in the Gazette around the time of the original newspaper article that started this thread, recording his promotion to Captain and appointment as an adjutant, but I can't find anything at all. The May 1918 British Army list also has him with the same battalion he is with in the August 1918 list. Edited to add that in the July 1917 British Army list he is listed as being with the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers, so he presumably transferred to the 25th (Service) (2nd Tyneside Irish) Battalion at some point in the intervening period. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104018396 Edited 4 May by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 5 May Author Share Posted 5 May How come non of the documents for his MC include his service number? Also about the aforementioned Sergeant, J Brown 22080 - I cant find any medal card or roll? Like I said before, perhaps this is him before premotion to 2/Lt? North Star Darlington 29/7/1916 "Brown 22080, Sergt. J. (Barrington Colliery)" Also found this about the Joseph Brown living at Office Row (sometimes referred to as Terrace) on the 1911 census. Blyth News 13/3/1922: (not war related, but shows he has an important roll?) Eoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 5 May Share Posted 5 May (edited) 30 minutes ago, Eoin Gallacher said: How come non of the documents for his MC include his service number? A Military Cross is an an officer's award At the time of the GW officers did not have Regimental numbers [unlike Other Ranks - he will have lost his Regt. No. on Commissioning]. Officers only later got Army numbers in the 1920s. M Edited 5 May by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 5 May Author Share Posted 5 May So will Cpt Brown have a medal roll? what would be pressed onto the rim of his medals, if he had no service number? And if the Sergeant is him, surely he will have a medal roll... no? Eoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 5 May Share Posted 5 May (edited) My understanding ... generally medals will be impressed off a Medal Roll(s) and MIC(s): Stars = Original substantive rank on landing in first theatre [possibly the original no. - but as said, not if an officer] and original regiment at time of first landing BWM & VM = Highest substantive rank in a theatre [possibly the original no. - but as said, not used if an officer] and original regiment at time of first landing And forename Initial(s) and Surname I stand by to potentially be corrected! M Edit: Like you I'm struggling to find a MIC for a Sergeant, 22080, or Captain Joseph BROWN, DLI, at the moment [and yesterday!] Edited 5 May by Matlock1418 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 5 May Author Share Posted 5 May So he wont have any pension cards or any medal roll etc? As how do people usually research an Officers service if there is very little available, at least a medal card states the date entered into theatre... Is there no way of linking Cpt. Joseph Brown to previous service before his commission? A service number would do that... but he doesn't have one Eoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 5 May Share Posted 5 May But he must have been overseas in order to get his MC in 1918 so he should have been entitled to at least a BWM & VM Unlike OR who got their war medals automatically sent out, all Officers had to apply for their war medals after the war [on form EF9] and if he did not apply then there will be no medal record. But puzzled as to why we [well I can't] can't find an Officer's Service Papers for him at TNA - perhaps he served after the war and somehow they have been held back ??? [However if so later serving he is probably more likely to have applied for his medals} = ??? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 5 May Share Posted 5 May (edited) A point to note is that for officers commissioned late in the war the Army usually wanted to get three years' service before they could resign/relinguish their commission [unless on health grounds as sick or due to wounds] ... so perhaps potential service up to say, 1921 or even longer?? That he was described in his 1918 MC citation as T./2nd Lt (acting Capt.) rather suggest a late commissioning, so the above may apply This would also mean they are likely to have an automatic increase in rank to Lt after a 18 months commissioned service - and that would typically be posted up in the London Gazette as J. BROWN [not Joseph BROWN] M Edit: It's puzzling that we cannot [yet?] find such LG records - that said, the LG is a beggar to search using their search facility and their OCR trancriptions can frequently leave a lot to be desired. The lack of MIC and Officer's papers at TNA are a big challenge too. Edited 5 May by Matlock1418 add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 5 May Share Posted 5 May Eoin, It doesn’t add much but here is his actual casualty listing from the Times. Published 29 July 1916 it of course suggests a wounding around 4 weeks prior. Ive also added a cut of those killed from the Regiment in the same list and this is the first list of names below. A quick CWGC search of those killed may give you a date and battalion. Searches on the wounded for a SR may also help should you wish to pursue. Courtesy of the Times archive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Gallacher Posted 5 May Author Share Posted 5 May Cheers! It seems a lot of them with similar numbers to Sgt. J Brown 22080 died 3rd July 1916 with the 12th Bn: 20045 Albert Jackson 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 20640 James Robinson 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 20732 Harry Smith 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 20765 Thomas Nicholson 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 22110 Thomas Robson 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 22276 John R Scott 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 22716 John R Salisbury 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 22483 John R Winn 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 22780 Thomas Maw 12th Bn - Died 3/7/1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 5 May Share Posted 5 May 27 minutes ago, Eoin Gallacher said: t seems a lot of them with similar numbers to Sgt. J Brown 22080 died 3rd July 1916 with the 12th Bn: It all adds to his story. Quick searches of those wounded against the Ancestry hosted BWM and VM roll will hopefully add weight to the 12th battalion evidence if required. I too am surprised we can’t yet find an officers medal roll or MIC for him. I wonder if he joined another regiment post war and they processed his medals for him. That would throw us off somewhat. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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