TEW Posted 3 May Share Posted 3 May I've just found by chance a note in a service record giving the burial details of a man that CWGC have as being on PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL. Not my usual thing and I wonder if anyone wants to look into this further? No idea if he may have been concentrated or is still there? TEW https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/872644/frederick-farey/ Image below from service file https://www.ancestrylibraryedition.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/gbrmil1914r4pt2_138711-00591?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=663345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDT006 Posted 3 May Share Posted 3 May TEW, nice find, I read the map reference as 36.I.10.b.4.7. and the description "just west of level crossing opposite entrance of Porte Egal Farm". The burial location should be in the purple circle on the map below, but chances are great that the grave was destroyed in later battles as it was in the British front lines during most of the war. The map is an extract of October 1917 (source https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464966). CWGC could help by providing a list of remains found in that map square. They did this, without problems, untill about a year ago but now you probably won't even get a reply.... Luc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 3 May Author Share Posted 3 May Thanks Luc, Is there a simple way to determine which cemetery he may have been re-buried if it was within the concentrations time frame. One would think that as the note survived in his file a Graves Unit would have been supplied with the details. I think I'm right in saying that if he was found and re-buried say in the 1950s that could be another cemetery? No such thing as a body density map for that square? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May 11 hours ago, TEW said: No such thing as a body density map for that square? Yes and no @TEW. TrenchMapper has the Messer collection with the original IWGC cemeteries. It shows that they only expected to recover 2 bodies in the Houplines sector. The yellow pin is the exhumation location, within the orange square (plus any margin for conversion error). I note Messer has underlined Grand Porte Egal Farm so he must have had some interest in it. No. 8 Mosaic of Woods, Roads and Hostile Batteries. XV Corps Front (Northern Half) Sheet 36 C6-30, D2-28, I4-36, J1-33 1:2,0000 Edition: 22-Jan-18 Id: p_005506 Lille, Sheet 36, 1:40,000 Edition: 6 1916. Annotated with disinternments and cemeteries. Marked AAM on reverse. From Messer collection. Id: m_5_000758 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May Related to the above subject: The information for the Honourable Artillery Company Cemetery includes the following regarding cemeteries from which graves were concentrated: "MORY-ECOUST ROAD CEMETERIES No.1 AND No.2, ECOUST-ST. MEIN, both very near the road. They were made in March, April and May 1917, and they contained the graves of 63 soldiers from the United Kingdom (almost all 8th and 9th Devons and R.F.A.) and one from Australia." I have been trying to find the location of these two cemeteries. Mention is made above of the Messer collection in Trench Mapper, and that it shows original IWGC cemeteries, so I wondered if they are shown there. However I am not conversant with Trench Mapper, so wonder if anyone can help locate these. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May OK, apologies to TEW because I think we're hijacking this thread. TrenchMapper, from The Western Front Association, has georeferenced all known Messer maps acquired by the IWM and made available under license. It also has a database of modern CWGC and original 1919 IWGC burials, as passed on by the CWGC to the late and much missed Richard Laughton. It also has the georeferenced maps from the White Cross Atlas, courtesy of the same source. These are small-scale generic maps, originally produced in the 1920s for early motorists wanting to pay their respects. The current version of TrenchMapper makes it very difficult to find this information. The version slated for mid-May release allows you to find a location, view all points of interest within a certain distance, select a map category, such as Body Density or aerial photographs and use an advanced search for 'IWGC Cemetery in Sheet 57c.B'. Then, bulk plot your own exhumation locations. To start answering your questions, the data in TrenchMapper is comprehensive, but does not have cemeteries with the names you want. The best approach is to sample the COG-BR for the HAC and find if any exhumations came from named locations. This constitutes a primary source and we would add these to TrenchMapper. To show you what it does have, here are the known IWGC cemeteries in 57c.B and 57c.C. Also a Messer map extract and the relevant White Cross cemeteries. Some of these might be what you are looking for, given they lie on the road and no longer exist. Interesting to see that the HAC cemetery itself moved around 500 metres north at some point. Click on each image to enlarge. Cheers, Bill IWGC cemeteries in Sheet 57c, squares B and C, courtesy CWGC: Ervillers German Military Cemetery 57c.B.19.a.5.8 50.159320 2.819254 Hally Copse East Cemetery, St Leger 57c.B.10.b.3.4 50.174691 2.862298 Hally Copse North Cemetery, St Leger 57c.B.10.d.8.8 50.172266 2.865575 L'Homme Mort Cemetery No2 (Ecoust St Mein) 57c.B.18.c.6.8 50.164277 2.883751 L'Homme Mort Cemetery, Mory 57c.B.17.b.0.5 50.167023 2.873423 Mory Abbey British Cemetery 57c.B.22.a.7.8 50.159844 2.858924 Ecoust Military Cemetery, Ecoust St Mein 57c.C.2.a.8.6 50.184348 2.910026 Ecoust St Mein Communal Cemetery Extension 57c.C.2.a.2.8 50.185122 2.906160 HAC British Cemetery, Ecoust St Mein 57c.C.7.d.0.5 50.171461 2.898894 Lagnicourt Australian Cemetery 57c.C.23.b.15.25 50.158753 2.951451 Lagnicourt Hedge Cemetery 57c.C.23.d.3.3 50.154860 2.952526 Noreuil Australian Cemetery 57c.C.16.a.5.8 50.169025 2.934181 Noreuil British Cemetery No1 57c.C.16.c.9.8 50.164947 2.936864 Noreuil British Cemetery No2 57c.C.16.c.8.9 50.165350 2.936212 Vaulx ADS British Cemetery, Vaulx-Vraucourt 57c.C.20.d.2.8 50.156431 2.913437 Vaulx Churchyard British Extension, Vaulx-Vraucou 57c.C.26.c.9.5 50.146954 2.911805 Vraucourt Copse British Cemetery, Vaulx-Vraucourt 57c.C.20.b.5.3 50.158510 2.915294 White Cross Atlas War Grave Locations (1920s, not suitable for modern georeferenced POI) Modern GWGC cemeteries overlayed 1129 Mory Abbey British Cemetery 729 H.A.C. British Cemetery, Ecoust St. Mein 928 L'Homme Mort Cemetery, Mory 929 L'Homme Mort Cemetery, No. 2, Ecoust St. Mein Messer Individual Burial Locations (post-war maps, incorrectly called Body Density) Note distance from HAC to modern HAC. Bapaume to Villers-Guislain Sheet 57c 1:40,000 Edition: 2 Feb 1917 Annotated with disinternments and cemeteries. Marked AAM on reverse. From Messer collection. Id: m_5_000761 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDT006 Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May 21 hours ago, TEW said: Is there a simple way to determine which cemetery he may have been re-buried if it was within the concentrations time frame. I think I'm right in saying that if he was found and re-buried say in the 1950s that could be another cemetery? Yes: search for all from the same regiment and battalion on the CWGC website. I did it for January 1915 with the result below. You could broaden the search for the entire period when they were at that location and other regiments from the brigade. But searching for that map reference in the burial return sheets for those cemeteries is a major task.... Indeed if he was found much later after the war he could be in a cemetery furter away. GOODEY J J 02/01/15 Rifleman "B" Coy. 3rd Bn. RATION FARM MILITARY CEMETERY, LA CHAPELLE-D'ARMENTIERES VII. A. 16. PERRIN A C 03/01/15 Bugler 3rd Bn. CITE BONJEAN MILITARY CEMETERY, ARMENTIERES IX. B. 22. APPLETON J 04/01/15 Rifleman 3rd Bn. BAILLEUL COMMUNAL CEMETERY, NORD G. 19. GULL A A 06/01/15 Bugler 3rd Bn. BAILLEUL COMMUNAL CEMETERY, NORD G. 17. TURNER W F 13/01/15 Bugler "B" Coy. 3rd Bn. FERME BUTERNE MILITARY CEMETERY, HOUPLINES A. 4. CURTIS W H 14/01/15 Rifleman 3rd Bn. CITE BONJEAN MILITARY CEMETERY, ARMENTIERES IX. A. 85. CRAWFORD-KEHRMANN J 24/01/15 Lieutenant 3rd Bn. CHAPELLE-D'ARMENTIERES OLD MILITARY CEMETERY A. 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew pugh Posted 4 May Share Posted 4 May Evening All Nice area to visit. My Great Uncle a Special Reservist(1st Battalion Royal Fusiliers) landed in France on the 04/12/1914 and found himself in the trenches on the 08/12/1914 at Wez Muquart in that same area. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 5 May Share Posted 5 May This is a very timely thread. I am writing an article on Grand Porte Égal and the l'Épinette salient. The White Cross Touring Atlas shows a cemetery that matches the description in the opening post, but so far I have failed to find out what happened to it and where the remains were taken. I shall watch with interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDT006 Posted 6 May Share Posted 6 May 14 hours ago, Chris_Baker said: The White Cross Touring Atlas shows a cemetery that matches the description in the opening post, Chris, sorry but I can't see a cemetery near l'Épinette. Do you have another version of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 6 May Share Posted 6 May I must have. Cemetery 701 is shown at Grande Porte Egal Farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 6 May Share Posted 6 May 23 minutes ago, Chris_Baker said: Cemetery 701 is shown at Grande Porte Egal Farm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 7 May Author Share Posted 7 May A belated thank you to those who have contributed or just joined in, all good with me. I'm currently going through Luc's list of suggested cemeteries for concentrations, as far as I can see from the CEFSG mediafire host none of these have been compiled before? I note that RATION FARM MILITARY CEMETERY, LA CHAPELLE-D'ARMENTIERES has been mentioned before as having concentrations brought in from the battlefiled but there are no COG forms. I see the GRRF forms double up in some cases as COGs but they lack a map reference for the original location. Example of a GRRF used for COGS. I shall plug away and see what comes out. It seems possible though that if no likely COGs are found for other cemeteries then Ration Farm MC becomes the most likely. I'm note seeing any concentraions for Cite Bonjean Military Cemetery, Armentieres either. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDT006 Posted 7 May Share Posted 7 May TEW, Richard didn't do all cemeteries, also concentration documents for a number of cemeteries were lost and 2 cemeteries in the list didn't have concentrations. I have concentration documents for Cite Bonjean, still need to verify if there are for the other ones The fact that he was probably buried in a cemetery changes everything: When was that cemetery concentrated? Which destination? Luc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 7 May Author Share Posted 7 May From your earlier list I only found a concentration report to Connaught BC who must have been moved again to BAILLEUL COMMUNAL CEMETERY, NORD. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/197881/f-shaw/ Otherwise I've only seen the GRRFs used as COGs for Ration Farm. There are quite a few UBS of the Rifle Brigade. With no additional info it can only be a possible modern location for Farey. My search method was to just list all casualties per cemetery and look for concentration forms in the details. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 10 May Author Share Posted 10 May Just to check in to say I'm still looking into this but finding it more complicated than I imagined. Ration Farm Military Cemetery, La Chapelle-D'armentieres probably holds the answers but this cemetery has it's own complexities. Ration Farm Old Military Cemetery. Used Feb 1915 to Oct 1915 then closed down. Ration Farm New Military Cemetery commenced Oct 1915 to Oct 1918, at some stage renamed to Ration Farm Military Cemetery, La Chapelle-D'armentieres. Burials from Ration Old were concentrated into Ration New post-Armsitice. There are also concentrations from battlefield clearance (Farey?) and two smaller cemeteries. CWGC say; For the most part, Plots I to V contain the original burials IE those buried in Ration Old upto Oct 1915 but infact when you look at the GRRFS there are burials in plot 3 from 1918. Ration Farm has 643 identified and 677 unidentified men including quite a few Rifle Brigade. Extract from CWGC Going back to Farey and his death 10/1/15 and burial near Porte Égal. Two diaries note that 3rd Rifle Brigade had 3 men killed that day. The Messer collection seems to indicate only 2 bodies were suspected in that location (I think I have that correct?) CWGC only have 2 men, Farey and Humphries for that day. I'm widening the search to inlclude deaths in other battalions of 17th Infantry Brigade for January 1915 but as I work through I'm seeing many recorded on PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL. 3rd RB diary has a map dated Nov 1914 but included in the Jan 1915 diary Farey's burial location marked in red circle. I hadn't realised how close the burial/s were to the the trench line. I also noted that the men were billeted in Chapelle D'Armentiers when out of the line which again is very close to Porte Égal. Also note the communication trench from billets to front line passes a Cemetery marked on the map. Work in progress! TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 10 May Share Posted 10 May (edited) Hi Tew, In his file you also find this on his Casualty Form - Active Service. Russell was in charge of RB records based solely in Winchester. Edited 10 May by stiletto_33853 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 10 May Share Posted 10 May (edited) This from a 3rd RB photograph album containing a lot of pictures of Porte Egal Farm and Grand Porte Egal area dated winter 1914-15. Unfortunately the picture loses a lot of distinction when enlarged, so unable to see any names on the gravestones. Andy Edited 10 May by stiletto_33853 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 11 May Author Share Posted 11 May Oh, that certainly opens things up a bit. I see eight grave markers. I've seen another service record which shows burial near Chapelle D'Armentiers while the current location is Ration Farm. Thanks TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted Wednesday at 12:10 Author Share Posted Wednesday at 12:10 (edited) @LDT006 Luc, I'm still stumbling through this and have just found a 2018 topic of Laughton's which mentions Grand Porte-Egal Farm as a cemetery on the CWGC DAL which Laughton added to the TMC. I'm totally lost with DAL and TMC. There is also mention of some confusing text from CWGC but I'm not seeing how to access that? I see I was quoted by Laugton as saying there are a number of HD-SCHD for Le Touret mixed in with all of these which is something I rediscovered yesterday. TIA https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/267840-houplines-communal-cemetery-extension/#comment-2713813 TEW Edited Wednesday at 12:49 by TEW Link Added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted Wednesday at 12:43 Share Posted Wednesday at 12:43 @TEW I really owe you a big, big apology as I put the DAL into the SQL database TrenchMapper uses and I plotted your coordinates but forgot to overlay nearby IWGC cemeteries in my response. I think the reason I missed it is <I tried some really weak excuses but none of them are plausible>. Tonight I went back to the original Word version of Richard's list: Quote List of Cemeteries in France and Belgium (original 1919 IWGC list from David Avery at CWGC) The David Avery list (DAL) clearly shows the original IWGC cemetery: Quote Grande Porte-Egal Farm, Houplines 36.I.10.b.5.6 The new version of TrenchMapper allows a more advanced search so if I put in the term Porte with the restriction of Sheet 36.I it immediately brought up all references including the IWGC term. When I saw Andy's great photo I wondered why I hadn't found the cemetery and I now realise it was there all the time but I hadn't thought to check it. I've corrected around 10 entries in the DAL so if anyone wants the update, just contact me. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDT006 Posted Wednesday at 13:00 Share Posted Wednesday at 13:00 A bit more information for the DAL is here with the location of the files: On 10/05/2024 at 15:26, TEW said: Also note the communication trench from billets to front line passes a Cemetery marked on the map. That cemetery is the still existing Communal Cemetery of La Chapelle-d'Armentieres: https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/63404/la-chapelle-d-armentieres-communal-cemetery/ It is marked as 368 on the Trenchmapper map extract posted by Whitestarline before but is not listed in the spreadsheets compiled by Richard Laughton.... I have searched a few cemeteries but no luck so far: Houplines CCE, Strand cemetery.. Luc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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