Medical corps Armband…advice needed.

[Dave66]

A while ago I found a tin of Great War bring backs, some of you may remember the thread I started trying to link the mixture of German and British mementos. In that tin, amongst other things, was a medical corps armband which has now come out of the freezer after a month in exile in the hope any little critters  are now gone.

Firstly, I’d like guidance on cleaning…should I clean, and if so, how?

Secondly, this armband is specific to 45th and 47th Casualty Clearing Station so nice to be able to pinpoint its history quite precisely, but who would have worn these armbands…Stretcher bearers, or were they worn by any other medical professional?

Many thanks,

Dave.

[FROGSMILE]

Personally I don’t think that you should clean it at all.  It should reek, and be profoundly emblematic of, the war in which it was used. Every iota of grime, and every crease, and fold are a testament to its authentic character.  The circumstances it went through. 

 

Edited 4 May by FROGSMILE

[Dave66]

Thanks FS.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Thanks FS.

In a sense if you wash it then it becomes just a piece of white cloth with a Red Cross on it Dave.  I imagine that when you handle it now, as it was when it came out of the box, you can actually feel it’s history at your fingertips?

[Dave66]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

In a sense if you wash it then it becomes just a piece of white cloth with a Red Cross on it Dave.  I imagine that when you handle it now, as it was when it came out of the box, you can actually feel it’s history at your fingertips?

Absolutely….since posting it’s had a gentle hoover and I’ll probably leave it at that, wouldn’t want to damage it in any way.

Appreciate your advice,

Dave.

[battle of loos]

good evening,

this is my exemple :

showing on the french TV :

regards

michel

[Dave66]

26 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

good evening,

this is my exemple :

showing on the french TV :

regards

michel

Nice👍

[TEW]

A few observations from me, hopefully that might bump the topic.

Firstly, I can see 47 CCS quite plainly but the 45 could equally be 48 for me.

Secondly, there is a Army Medical Service stamp which I thought was American?

Thirdly, can you see a precise date? I can see a 6 but little else.

I've been looking through some diaries to see if I can connect 47 to 45/48 CCSs. So far I can only connect 47 & 48 in Aug 1918 which coincides with USA input with the two CCSs.

There's also Convalescent patients being used for Stretcher work as well as Permanent Base men reporting for duty with 48 CCS while 47 & 48 are grouped together.

I'll leave it there for the moment on case you come back with a better date.

TEW

[Dave66]

29 minutes ago, TEW said:

A few observations from me, hopefully that might bump the topic.

Firstly, I can see 47 CCS quite plainly but the 45 could equally be 48 for me.

Secondly, there is a Army Medical Service stamp which I thought was American?

Thirdly, can you see a precise date? I can see a 6 but little else.

I've been looking through some diaries to see if I can connect 47 to 45/48 CCSs. So far I can only connect 47 & 48 in Aug 1918 which coincides with USA input with the two CCSs.

There's also Convalescent patients being used for Stretcher work as well as Permanent Base men reporting for duty with 48 CCS while 47 & 48 are grouped together.

I'll leave it there for the moment on case you come back with a better date.

TEW

TEW…thanks for your thoughts,

You’re quite right, the 45 could easily be 48…..and I had assumed British, so hadn’t factored in any American connection as the few I’d seen online with that stamp seem to indicate British or VAD.

The printing/writing is very unclear……just had another look and I’m wondering if it’s 24/6/??….possibly 18…..I’ve taken a fresh close up of the stamp and posted below.

Dave

[jay dubaya]

It’s a close call on the 45 or 48 but the date appears to be 24/6/18

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

It’s a close call on the 45 or 48 but the date appears to be 24/6/18

That’s really helpful Jay.  My money’s on 45 - I think there’d be more ink even for a carelessly written 8. 

Edited 4 May by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

I'll have a further look through the diaries.

Either way I think the two CCSs must be grouped together for the armlet to make sense. By that I mean EG. in 1916 45 & 47 were in different armies so I can't see why you'd have one armlet for those CCSs.

As well as Convalescents working as stretcher bearers there were RE Labour companies usually on railways and road making but not exclusively. There's also ASC employed at CCSs. Anyone of these could be called upon to do stretcher work.

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, TEW said:

I'll have a further look through the diaries.

Either way I think the two CCSs must be grouped together for the armlet to make sense. By that I mean EG. in 1916 45 & 47 were in different armies so I can't see why you'd have one armlet for those CCSs.

As well as Convalescents working as stretcher bearers there were RE Labour companies usually on railways and road making but not exclusively. There's also ASC employed at CCSs. Anyone of these could be called upon to do stretcher work.

TEW

I’m not sure there were still RE Labour Companies in 1918, TEW, I thought they were all absorbed by the Labour Corps in 1917?  I understand what you mean about the variety of personnel from different corps employed at CCS though.

[TEW]

There is a reference to 11 Lab. Battalion RE in Oct 1917. Otherwise there are Area Employment Coys.

I was leaning towards it being 47 and 45 CCSs. However, I can't place those two in the same Army for 1918. 47 & 48 were grouped together in the 4th Army from early Aug to early Oct 1918.

47 CCS diary is a bit poor for June 1918.

I can't see an armlet being issued to someone temporarily with 47 CCS who keeps it and ends up using it with a CCS from a different Army.

AMS still had me stumped slightly. Although 4th Army medical staff Nov 1918 include Col. SE Gask & Col. J Nixon both AMS but not at CCS level.

If it is 48 then that diary gives more details of personnel for the Aug-Oct period including CAMC, SAMC, MORC, AANS, USANC, USMRC, ANC, MDNA but no sign of AMS.

TEW 

[Dave66]

6 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

It’s a close call on the 45 or 48 but the date appears to be 24/6/18

Jay,

many thanks for that…18 it is.

Dave.

[Dave66]

4 hours ago, TEW said:

I'll have a further look through the diaries.

Either way I think the two CCSs must be grouped together for the armlet to make sense. By that I mean EG. in 1916 45 & 47 were in different armies so I can't see why you'd have one armlet for those CCSs.

As well as Convalescents working as stretcher bearers there were RE Labour companies usually on railways and road making but not exclusively. There's also ASC employed at CCSs. Anyone of these could be called upon to do stretcher work.

TEW

TEW,

From your explanation I think it makes logical sense for it to be 47th and 48th…..the organisation and structure of these things is not something I’m familiar with, so your help has been extremely valuable….Thank you.

Dave.

[GWF1967]

On 03/05/2024 at 19:21, FROGSMILE said:

Personally I don’t think that you should clean it at all.  It should reek, and be profoundly emblematic of, the war in which it was used. Every iota of grime, and every crease, and fold are a testament to its authentic character.  The circumstances it went through. 

 

 

On 03/05/2024 at 19:53, FROGSMILE said:

In a sense if you wash it then it becomes just a piece of white cloth with a Red Cross on it Dave.  I imagine that when you handle it now, as it was when it came out of the box, you can actually feel it’s history at your fingertips?

I’m in full agreement- the history is ingrained and stained into the very fabric.  

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, TEW said:

There is a reference to 11 Lab. Battalion RE in Oct 1917. Otherwise there are Area Employment Coys.

I was leaning towards it being 47 and 45 CCSs. However, I can't place those two in the same Army for 1918. 47 & 48 were grouped together in the 4th Army from early Aug to early Oct 1918.

47 CCS diary is a bit poor for June 1918.

I can't see an armlet being issued to someone temporarily with 47 CCS who keeps it and ends up using it with a CCS from a different Army.

AMS still had me stumped slightly. Although 4th Army medical staff Nov 1918 include Col. SE Gask & Col. J Nixon both AMS but not at CCS level.

If it is 48 then that diary gives more details of personnel for the Aug-Oct period including CAMC, SAMC, MORC, AANS, USANC, USMRC, ANC, MDNA but no sign of AMS.

TEW 

I realise that you’ve been researching through this with a fine tooth comb and perhaps I have misunderstood some aspects.

I had thought the ink stamp on the armband was 1918 and so hence my comment about the RE whose labour companies had by that year been absorbed by the Labour Corps.  There was no reason for them to be retained by the RE because the Labour Corps took over the role for which they had been used, continuing to support the CRE as required.

As for the CCS number, I don’t think that it reads 48.  The lettering configuration, even allowing for smudges and carelessness, is far more in line with a scrawled 45.  That would seem to be significant in relation to your other comments.

What is it, if anything, that goes against that 45 possibility ID wise?

Edited 4 May by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

I wasn't 100% certain of the year when I started looking, I saw a 6 and started with 1916. I picked up on a few references to personnel from that point.

What is it, if anything, that goes against that 45 possibility ID wise?

Mainly that I can't find a connection for 47 & 45 CCSs. I'm making a few assumptions regarding the process and reasons for issuing such an armlets.

My thinking was that it would not be necessary to issue it to RAMC and I suppose CAMC, SAMC, MORC etc.

Additional personnel at a CCS would normally be Convalescent patients (sometimes these can be long term). Area Employment companies, PB men if these are different to the Area Employment? POWs at a stretch. There's ASC men including one man in 1918 from an Aux Steam & Petrol Coy who died digging a latrine trench along with a Northumberland Fusilier.

So, all in all quite a range of men who may have been issued with the armlet.

Would such an armlet be issued and retained indefinitely by any of the above? Or was it as and when needed?

As 45 and 47 CCS are in different Army groups (definitely so in 1918) how would the armlet be travelling between Army groups?

It could I suppose if it was issued permanently to someone who by chance changed CCS to another Army group but that seems a wild scenario.

I did wonder late last night if it's actually Armlet #47 for 45 CCS or perhaps vice verse which changes things considerably!

TEW

[Dave66]

19 minutes ago, TEW said:

 

I did wonder late last night if it's actually Armlet #47 for 45 CCS or perhaps vice verse which changes things considerably!

That’s something completely out of the box that I didn’t consider, the trouble I have found after endless googling is I can find no other CCS stamped armlet anywhere to compare it with.

There must be a medical connection with the whole grouping somewhere sown the line, as one other thing was the newspaper clipping of a RAMC captain missing, later presumed dead in the Dardanelles in 1915….such a shame the owner of this little collection has been forgotten, it could have explained the connections.

 

[Dave66]

10 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

 

I’m in full agreement- the history is ingrained and stained into the very fabric.  

It’s going back in the tin as it is, (probably in a little bag to prevent any moths) as it was found.

Dave.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, TEW said:

I wasn't 100% certain of the year when I started looking, I saw a 6 and started with 1916. I picked up on a few references to personnel from that point.

What is it, if anything, that goes against that 45 possibility ID wise?

Mainly that I can't find a connection for 47 & 45 CCSs. I'm making a few assumptions regarding the process and reasons for issuing such an armlets.

My thinking was that it would not be necessary to issue it to RAMC and I suppose CAMC, SAMC, MORC etc.

Additional personnel at a CCS would normally be Convalescent patients (sometimes these can be long term). Area Employment companies, PB men if these are different to the Area Employment? POWs at a stretch. There's ASC men including one man in 1918 from an Aux Steam & Petrol Coy who died digging a latrine trench along with a Northumberland Fusilier.

So, all in all quite a range of men who may have been issued with the armlet.

Would such an armlet be issued and retained indefinitely by any of the above? Or was it as and when needed?

As 45 and 47 CCS are in different Army groups (definitely so in 1918) how would the armlet be travelling between Army groups?

It could I suppose if it was issued permanently to someone who by chance changed CCS to another Army group but that seems a wild scenario.

I did wonder late last night if it's actually Armlet #47 for 45 CCS or perhaps vice verse which changes things considerably!

TEW

Thanks for your reply.  It’s certainly a complex process to consider all the many permutations.  I’d picked up the 1918 date as a given from other posts in this thread and accepted it as read.  jay dubaya convinced me with his manipulated rendering of the image as black and white.

After the Labour Corps was formed they took on a huge range of labour duties formerly carried out by RE and ASC Labour units and infantry work parties, including those supporting CCS.

I think you’re right that local convalescents were also used to help out, but probably only until they could be moved on.  The aim after all was to get them back into the firing line and there was a process they had to go through in order to achieve that.

 I feel that we need to seek out the procedural document concerning the wearing of Red Cross armlets, which I have seen before but cannot relocate.  It certainly isn’t the case that RAMC men did not need to wear them because of their corps arm badge, many of the paintings above are of RAMC men.

My understanding from memory is that RAMC medical orderlies and RAMC stretcher bearers, plus RMOs in the forward areas (RAPs and DS), were required to wear the armlet, but not odds and sods, waifs and strays carrying out ancillary duties at CCS.

Edited 5 May by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

I don't want to get too bogged down in CCS stamps but the diaries for 45, 47 and 48 have similar stamps. They are not exactly the same though and are used in different ways.

All extracts courtesy of TNA

45 CCS

Note how the No. part has been used for a filing reference. By 1918 the diary is using a square stamp.

 

47 CCS

They refer to themselves as 1/1 Home Counties CCS until early 1917 then become 47th CCS. This coincides with the use of the square stamp. I presume the 138 and the 1 are other filing references.

 

48 CCS

Note different position of No.  and a different typeface plus another file ref?

 

Using the proposed 24/6/1918 date for 47 CCS I've noticed that Lt. Col. G H Dive of Dive's Copse fame was the CO at this time. From other research I can add his organization of the Dressing Station at what became Dive's Copse was quite exceptional. Shame the dairy is a simple table of admissions and discharges.

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

I don't want to get too bogged down in CCS stamps but the diaries for 45, 47 and 48 have similar stamps. They are not exactly the same though and are used in different ways.

All extracts courtesy of TNA

45 CCS

Note how the No. part has been used for a filing reference. By 1918 the diary is using a square stamp.

 

47 CCS

They refer to themselves as 1/1 Home Counties CCS until early 1917 then become 47th CCS. This coincides with the use of the square stamp. I presume the 138 and the 1 are other filing references.

 

48 CCS

Note different position of No.  and a different typeface plus another file ref?

 

Using the proposed 24/6/1918 date for 47 CCS I've noticed that Lt. Col. G H Dive of Dive's Copse fame was the CO at this time. From other research I can add his organization of the Dressing Station at what became Dive's Copse was quite exceptional. Shame the dairy is a simple table of admissions and discharges.

TEW

The various stamps are very helpful.

Going on the example they give it seems to me that our subject stamp reads 45 CSS - file reference of 47 - and a date of 24/6/18.

That layout would seem to comply with the other examples that you’ve posted.

[TEW]

Yes, I've been veering towards Armlet No. 47 of 45 CCS. None of the examples I saw have the CCS No. where the stamp says No.

TEW