Wilkinson - Commercial Contract 1907 Bayonet

[navydoc16]

Bit of a random one, but would anyone be able to assist in the timeline of these Wilkinson Commercial bayonets, they are originally Great War blades that appear to have been refurbished,  I am unable to sort out when they were completed and by who they were delivered?

Is it possible they had a private contract during the course of the war?

I just purchased pommel number “718” but can’t work out much else 

kind regards

g

Edited 5 May by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

438 and 838 I found online and appear to be part of the same set. 
 

Same elongated font on the pommel I am not familiar with in commonwealth service. 

[navydoc16]

656 was posted on @trajan thread on Pall Mall bayonets

 

[navydoc16]

375 showed up on a different forum, with a marked scabbard from 878. 

With no “1907” mark.

 

[navydoc16]

One more showed if anyone finds anything- this one appears to have no pommel markings at all 

 

[JMB1943]

Navydoc,

There is a neat little equation that enables the total production to be ESTIMATED (Nest.) from knowledge of the number of examples seen (n) and the highest serial number recorded (Smax). See the German Tank Problem on Wiki.

Here we have 375, 438, 656, 718, 838, 878, and Nest. = Smax (1 + 1/n) - 1

so Nest. = 878 (1 + 1/6) - 1 and Nest. = 1023

As further serial numbers become available the value of the estimate falls, unless a number greater than 878 is recorded.

Regards,

JMB

 

Edited 6 May by JMB1943
Add info

[navydoc16]

Thanks mate,

I have heard but haven’t had to apply the principal yet- but this is a good example of potential use to keep it in mind, I just purchased one more. 

However im thinking being a private contract it is a “round number” I don’t believe there is much more space on the pommel for more than XXXX, given the number so far are quite low, im hypothesising 1000.

I am just stumped to who purchased them and when, wether during the Great War or post Great War - as we have realised, Pall Mall being used half way during the war from the evidence we’ve seen so far. 
 

just odd to be with no ID or alpha-numeric “regimental” or “ownership” markings seen so far. Moreover, whatever institution purchased them, seems to have a significant quantity of assuming SMLE to go with- and this rules out a lot of private military academy’s/school and non-military supported institutions. 

kind regards

g

Edited 7 May by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

On 05/07/2023 at 08:51, shippingsteel said:

This example appears to be a standard Wilkinson production bayonet that has failed to make it through the inspection process. Perhaps best termed a "commercial" bayonet it was not accepted into service due to some flaw, (possibly the vertical seam visible centre of blade both sides ricasso)

Wilkinson was a private contractor, so anything not accepted initially into British service (while still remaining fully functional) was then available to be later sold to any interested bidder. After the war much surplus was sold into foreign military forces, and likely where this ended up.

Cheers, SS 

Hi mate, just curious if you had a particular place I could read more about this? it seemed pertinent to a commercial contract bayonet posted on a different thread. 

 

kind regards,
g

Edited 7 May by navydoc16

[JMB1943]

16 hours ago, navydoc16 said:

Thanks mate,

I have heard but haven’t had to apply the principal yet- but this is a good example of potential use to keep it in mind, I just purchased one more. 

However im thinking being a private contract it is a “round number” I don’t believe there is much more space on the pommel for more than XXXX, given the number so far are quite low, im hypothesising 1000.

I am just stumped to who purchased them and when, wether during the Great War or post Great War - as we have realised, Pall Mall being used half way during the war from the evidence we’ve seen so far. 
 

just odd to be with no ID or alpha-numeric “regimental” or “ownership” markings seen so far. Moreover, whatever institution purchased them, seems to have a significant quantity of assuming SMLE to go with- and this rules out a lot of private military academy’s/school and non-military supported institutions. 

kind regards

g

Navydoc,

Given the large font size, I think that you are quite likely correct in thinking a round number contract for 1000, and the formula estimate of 1023 supports your thinking.

The standard British infantry battalion had a war-time establishment of 1007, which included about 30 officers plus sundry OR's who were not armed with rifles.

A contract for 1000 SMLE's would therefore allow about 100 rifles as spares.

A post in the WILK/PALL MALL thread, by Mk VII on 23-Sep-2023 says,

"Some years back a batch of well-worn commercial Sht L-E's was imported, reportedly from Bahrain. All had numerals in this typeface stamped on (I think) the marking disc.  There were also similarly marked bayonets. " [Emphasis added by me.]

Any evidence of sand-grains trapped in the scabbard or under the grips of your examples??

A desert climate would certainly explain a rust-free appearance.

A subsequent whole-Forum search for Bahrain gives posts by Shipping Steel and others that indicate a time-period of 1919 to 1930's for this contract.

These posts account for the unusual type-face, the lack of usual regimental markings, lack of royal crown/cypher etc.

Regards,

JMB

 

[navydoc16]

@JMB1943 thank you so much, that little tidbit gave me this. 
 

“

This is the standard MkIII .303 SMLE rifle manufactured by BSA

This was part of a large order for rifles through the UK Goverment Crown Office for Bahrain

The action, bolt & rear sight have matching serial numbers.
The rear sights graduated from 200 the 2000 yards.
Magazine Cut-off

The wood work is a pleasing dark walnut, complete and in excellent condition with no splts. All metalwork retains most all of its original finish.
The butt has has the typical Bahrain rack numbered brass marking disc.

Very Good Bore. 
The rifle has the original commercial BM (Birmingham Military) proof marks as there is debate if these are still valid, it was re-proofed.

Comes complete with a Bahrain issue Pattern 1907 Bayonet by Wilkinsons of Pall Mail
Miss-matched to the rifle but deserve to be together.

We originally sold this one a few years ago when the the Bahrain rifles first come on to the surplus market”

 

[navydoc16]

For no particularly good reason, other than I really want to look at the scabbard markings, I bought this the other day to add to the talley

@JMB1943 Perhaps, we may be able to run this along with “how many 1907s remaining) for Great War extrapolation to give some additional data set? 
 

funnily enough, research on this showed a really funny thing- about 10-15 years ago I found all these archived posts under the “Bahrain” contract after you prompted me- from there I found lots of folks in the US quoting huge numbers of Bahrain commercial rifles (saying they had a really low one) and that it seemed to be relatively common knowledge where these rifles came from. 

about 5 years ago it looks like I’ve seen a whole flourish of posts requesting information about “unknown commercial contract” as the older posts arn’t selected for google unless you use the specific “Bahrain” or “Bahrani” phrase. 

kind regards

g

Edited 7 May by navydoc16

[JMB1943]

1 hour ago, navydoc16 said:

For no particularly good reason, other than I really want to look at the scabbard markings, I bought this the other day to add to the talley

@JMB1943 Perhaps, we may be able to run this along with “how many 1907s remaining) for Great War extrapolation to give some additional data set? 
 

funnily enough, research on this showed a really funny thing- about 10-15 years ago I found all these archived posts under the “Bahrain” contract after you prompted me- from there I found lots of folks in the US quoting huge numbers of Bahrain commercial rifles (saying they had a really low one) and that it seemed to be relatively common knowledge where these rifles came from. 

about 5 years ago it looks like I’ve seen a whole flourish of posts requesting information about “unknown commercial contract” as the older posts arn’t selected for google unless you use the specific “Bahrain” or “Bahrani” phrase. 

kind regards

g

Navydoc,

I'm very pleased that the "Bahrain Connection" came up trumps!!!

Solves another mystery for us, although since you said that the info was out there about 10-15 yrs ago it seems that the answer was already known and just had to be re-discovered.

You could set up a new thread looking for all of the Bahrain serials (did you get any from the old archives?); would give another pointer to survival rates.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: #659 looks like it has never seen rain, very clean pommel & ricasso.

 

Edited 7 May by JMB1943
Add info.

[navydoc16]

On 08/05/2024 at 08:04, JMB1943 said:

Navydoc,

I'm very pleased that the "Bahrain Connection" came up trumps!!!

Solves another mystery for us, although since you said that the info was out there about 10-15 yrs ago it seems that the answer was already known and just had to be re-discovered.

You could set up a new thread looking for all of the Bahrain serials (did you get any from the old archives?); would give another pointer to survival rates.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: #659 looks like it has never seen rain, very clean pommel & ricasso.

 

In order- 

yes but also the evidence is both “mostly solid” but also somewhat circumstantial, it all still seems to be “third hand” information regarding the fact they were at least exported from Bahrain. I am going through some archive I have access too to view and maybe do some research on the matter.
 

but there was significant British interest throughout the region including very small countries there are now Jordan, Oman and Bahrain I have contacted a couple people and see if I can narrow down some things and prove and or disprove. 
 

I will likely re-thread with a new 1907 survivorship rate, and leave this thread open for history on the rifle and bayonet for posterity so others can find their way looking for unmarked/commercial Wilkinson bayonets. 

the timeline matches with a lot of export of guns from India, I don’t believe they are Indian in any way, but im thinking an exporter went though whilst over in that region and managed to get them

what is still curious is the lack of Arabic markings, and the fact that the whole contract is mismatched in terms of serial numbers. When you only have 1000 odd guns it really shouldn’t be hard to work out which scabbard and bolt goes to which gun
 

kind regards

g

Edited 9 May by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

On 08/05/2024 at 08:04, JMB1943 said:

 

EDIT: #659 looks like it has never seen rain, very clean pommel & ricasso.

 

#659 is on its way to Australia to come live with me 

with the help of a friend with some good academic ties, I am going through some original documents, appears around the time of the Great War, Bahrain began ordering Lee Enfields for para-military type forces- more research is needed in this area. 

I now have access to extensive copies now of export and import permits for arms from the British Government in India, for the entire region from 1908-1938 which covers the First World War as well as gives insight into the entire region over this period- if and when I find useful information, I will update some other threads. 

kind regards,

G

Edited 9 May by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

@JMB1943 attached, 1937-1939 orders from BSA of SMLE rifle with bayonet totalling 925 + 100 for his royal guard (appears to be no export licence but a foot-note in the Bahrain Expenditure under outstanding charges from his visit to the UK). Looking at Bahrain, country was literally too small before 1939 to even support 1000 rifles, this is nearly 10 years after most folks believe the Bahrain order was placed, which is normally quoted at 20's or early 30's

I am doing further research on the Persian Gulf region around the Great War and I have found

1924 Order from Weedon Arsenal for 130 Government Surplus SMLE and Bayonet

1924 "order" of existing MLE of 150 which was upgraded to 250 from made from older rifles from the Anglo-Persian Oil Company which were due to be tossed into the sea for the Bahrain Levy Corps 

1935 1 order of used 20 ex-governent SMLE from Westley Richards for the small Bahrain Police Force

- 1936-1937 H. E. Shaikh Sir Hamad bin 'Isa al Khalifah, K. C. I. E., C. S. I. Ruler of Bahrain visited England for his first Official Royal visit - he also specifically visited several important factories and purchased wireless communications, saw armoured car production and visited the Royal Military Academy- These photos must exist somewhere else, they are footnoted but not viewed in the archives from Qatar and UAE, perhaps the UK archives somewhere. They would have had photographers throughout. I don't believe it is a coincidence that his first order through BSA was also the first time he was given a tour of the factory and the export licence was granted several weeks after his visit. This would have also been the first time he would have sworn allegiance to the British Crown in person, and alot of opportunities for purchase of technology would have been granted under the guise that he was now a loyal and trusted subject. 

1937 50 new SMLE from BSA 

1938 225 and 150 from BSA

1939 500 from BSA 

I am looking for missing orders as some others may exist, but I believe this should be the final word on this particular Wilkinson and BSA production, however I may expand on this at time goes on, of interest it also seems the BSA and Wilkinson had a very close relationship, not particularly special - but also ties in to the things like the Siamese Lee Enfield Order - @t.ryan 

Kind regards,

G

[navydoc16]

@t.ryanWhat is fascinating is that ratification of arms export laws were completed in 1920 just post the Great War, which effectively halted BSA commercial export to most countries, countries like Siam may have actually long term been trying to equip entire military forces with SMLEs, but were not allowed. The UK started refusing thousands of permits for war-like arms, I have started to look into this as well. 

kind regards,

g