34th Training Reserve Battalion - ex 13th (Reserve) Battalion Hampshire Regiment 1917

[Johnd]

Can anybody help me resolve a mystery regarding a serviceman that I am researching?

He was assigned to the 34th TR, probably in late 1916 early 1917. He died in VAD Exmouth Hospital in February 1917. 

What I am trying to establish is exactly how long he spent with his unit before he was sent to hospital; I believe 34th TR were based in Wool, Dorset, so why did he end up in Exmouth, would he have ever gone to Wool, or was he taken ill before he arrived there?

Did the 34th TR have other areas where they trained, or were they confined to Wool?

Any guidance on this subject would be most appreciated.

[kenf48]

The 13th (Reserve) Battalion Hampshire Regiment was a reserve/training battalion which became the 34th Training Reserve on 1st September 1916 and regimental affiliation was lost.  The men were transferred and renumbered into the TR.

A name often helps members to help you, age is important too as is marital status.

There is no such thing when researching soldiers of the Great War as one size fits though it may be possible to identify patterns.

As he died in the UK you could obtain an online death certificate from GRO for less than the price of a Sunday newspaper.  We may never know why he ended up in hospital in Exmouth but sick soldiers were often sent to hospital close to home.

I note on your other thread @Keith_history_buff posted the link to the twenty four week training schedule that applied from October 1917 which was not acknowledged, but here it is again

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/training-to-be-a-soldier/syllabus-of-infantry-training/

 

 

 

[Johnd]

Hi Ken, many thanks for that.

I am researching Ernest Albert Jasper (8/4864) born in 1892, died of pneumonia, 26^th February 1917 aged 24. he was single. I do have all official certificates & documents relating to him, including his death certificate & a newspaper report of his death, which suggests that he joined his unit several weeks before his death. However what I am trying to establish is, is this likely to be accurate, on the basis of the unit location & the fact that he ended up in Exmouth. Although based on what you have said it may be possible that they moved him closer to home; I was just slightly doubtful as there seemed to have been a fairly large hospital at Wool, so I wondered why he wasn't treated there.

Basically I'm just being particularly pedantic in checking all of the information, as I would not like to provide a misleading  account of his story when I release it on our parish website.

[RussT]

I can add the following bits of background, which might help to make a more informed judgement.

Jasper's Service Number should actually be TR/8/4864.

When the Training Reserve was formed on 01/09/1916, men were automatically transferred to the given Training Reserve Battalion (TRB) from whatever Regimental Reserve Battalion preceded it - after they had first filled out their own Reserve Battalion i.e. ordinarily the 3rd (Reserve Battalion) beforehand

The transfer did not normally mean a physical movement, which was the case here as the 13th Battalion Hampshire Regiment was already at Wool.

Upon it's creation, each TRB was allotted a set of TR/-prefixed numbers preceded first by the number of the District - so TR/8 in this case. They were issued their numbers in blocks of 4000, with the 34th/TRB getting the block 4001-8000. Men who joined the TRB were allotted their numbers in numerical/chronological sequence. Jasper, with the number TR/8/4864 would therefore have been the 864th man to join the 34/TRB. We don't know how many men were transferred wholesale from the 13th (Reserve) Battalion Hampshire Regiment to the 34th/TRB on 01/09/1916. Ordinarily, a Reserve Battalion, like the 13th (Reserve) Battalion Hampshire Regiment, might hold a couple of 1000 men (well over the establishment of a Service Battalion) in which case it might be credible that Jasper transferred on 01/09/1916 alongside, say, well over 1000 other men. However, as noted above each Regiment first filled out their own Regimental Reserve Battalion before transferring the remainder to the designated TRB on 01/09/1916. So this might have depleted quite considerably the 13th/Bn meaning that Jasper could have joined the 34/TRB well after 01/09/1916.

Fortunately, we do not have to guess when he joined the 34/TRB because we are lucky to have the Service Records of men who had the TRB numbers close to, and straddling, the TRB number for Jasper. 

Wilfred Phillips had attested, aged 32, under the Derby Scheme on 05/06/1916. He was mobilised to the 34/TRB and allotted the number of TR/8/4861 upon joining it on 18/01/1917.

William Edwards was conscripted under the MSA and was called-up to join the 34/TRB, aged 18, on 18/01/1917. He was allotted the number TR/8/4863.

John Lecheminant was conscripted under the MSA and was called-up to join the 34/TRB, aged 29, on 19/01/1917. He was allotted the number TR/8/4871.

It can therefore be concluded that Jasper would have joined the 34/TRB on or around 18/01/1917. It is highly likely, although it can't be guaranteed that this was his only unit and so joined the army on that date.

What seems clear then is that he died (26/02/1917) shortly after he joined the 34/TRB (18/01/1917).

The other bit of information relates to his War Gratuity - or more accurately a lack of one. He did not qualify for a War Gratuity which means he served (only at Home) for less than 6 months in total. That puts an upper bound to any possible total service period he might have had beyond the more likely few short weeks we know about.

Regards

Russ

 

 

[Johnd]

Hi Russ, many thanks, that would seem to be the best evidence to support the date he joined his unit.

What do you think about the location of his hospitalization; he was traveling from Cornwall, do yo think it likely that he never got as far as Wool, or would some of his initial training taken place at centres such as Exeter?

Regards

 

John

[RussT]

He most definitely would have turned up at 34/TRB in Wool when he was asked to do so (i.e. on or around the 18/01/1917) following his call-up or mobilisation papers because that would be the only means by which he could have been allotted his 34/TRB Service Number of TR/8/4864. There would be no other means by which he could have received that number. During his initial enrolment and processing at Wool he would have undergone a medical and would have been kitted out with his uniform etc prior to commencing his training syllabus together with others in a newly arrived group. I'm not aware of training being carried out at locations remote from Wool. It's possible I suppose if some very specialist training were required but that was not be the purpose of an Infantry TRB, and given that he had only recently joined he would still have been engaged very much with his initial basic infantry training.

I would only surmise that when he became ill (evidently shortly after joining the 34/TRB at Wool) they made a decision to move him to a hospital closer to home to enable family visits more convenient. Another possible reason is that if he had pneumonia, then perhaps certain hospitals were designated to treat such cases in order to minimise its spread, especially when the case is close to a military camp containing 1000s of men. So treating potential contagious diseases at Wool hospital would not have been advisable/permissible. The Army's medical authorities were very much on top of that sort of thing.

Russ 

 

[RussT]

In mooching about on the Forum, I came across these old threads where another member was researching Jasper back in 2013 - perhaps you can contact that member to compare notes - tagged here just in case: @old sparky

 

AND HERE:

 

 

 

[RussT]

I also came across this article in the Western Times dated 01/03/1917 concerning the death of a certain Pte E A Gaspard who I believe is actually Ernest Albert Jasper. Why they got his surname so badly wrong, I've no idea.

Image courtesy FindMyPast

 

[RussT]

A couple of items of "evidence" which throw a potential "Exmouth"-shaped spanner in the works worthy of a re-think.

The first concerns the memoires of Harry Patch (see attached pages from his book "The Last Fighting Tommy", courtesy Google Books) who went on to serve overseas in the DCLI. He was conscripted in October 1916 and re-calls being sent "to Exmouth where we did our basic training etc". So what was this place in Exmouth? He goes on to say that "in early 1917 we went to Sutton Veny near Warminster where I joined the 33rd Training Reserve Battalion". This recollection is also "interesting" given that 33/TRB (which was also in the 8th Training Reserve Brigade along with 34/TRB) was supposedly at Wool with 34/TRB. So perhaps the 8th TR Brigade had moved by early 1917, which is the period of interest. It seems therefore there might have been some sort of satellite training camp at Exmouth around this time but I can't find any official documentation about such a place. I'm not aware of any army unit being based there - so further work is required.

The second item is a line in a soldier's service record which I came across whilst looking at more examples of men who had similar TR/8/4xxx service numbers to Jasper. The image below is taken from the service record of Leonard Brudenell who was allotted the number TR/8/4604 (image courtesy FMP). The record shows his original posting, supposedly to 34/TRB, was at Exmouth on 03/01/1917 although he too was at Sutton Veny a couple of months later.

The timeframes for Brudenell, Patch and Jasper are all similar and for all 3 men Exmouth apparently plays some role.

So a re-think is definitely warranted it seems.

Regards

Russ

 

[Johnd]

Hi Russ, again many thanks, this information definitely throws new light on Ernest's service & broadens his story.

I am sure you are correct regarding the newspaper article, it is a perfect fit, especially as he was brought home to be buried, & the nearest station was Launceston; & I think the name error is not to extreme, I can understand the possible mix-up.

The training at Exmouth also sounds encouraging, & certainly explains why he would have been in the hospital there, & suggests that he may have actually started on some form of training before his admission into hospital; the information does all seem to fit & explain his story.

The training facility at Exmouth is intriguing, I've come across nothing about it so far, but I'll keep looking, maybe the local museum might have some knowledge of it.

I do think this all goes to expand our knowledge of Ernest, whilst in part supposition, it is at least founded on fairly strong documentary evidence.

Regards

John

[Johnd]

I wonder, before going to Exmouth, would Ernest perhaps have been issued his number & kit at Exeter, which I assume must have had a larger facility for recruits?

[RussT]

22 minutes ago, Johnd said:

wonder, before going to Exmouth, would Ernest perhaps have been issued his number & kit at Exeter, which I assume must have had a larger facility for recruits?

With regards to his TR number - I don't think so - but this research perhaps now tells us to say: never say never !

Exeter was the home of the Devonshire Regimental Depot - I can't see how they would be in charge of allotting service numbers for the 34/TRB. Harry Patch was from Somerset and in his account he first reported for duty and kitting out at "Tolland Barracks" which I understand (but can't prove) was the Regimental Depot of the Somerset Light Infantry at Taunton. His account (see above) is also "interesting" in the sense that he re-calls wearing several different cap badges (and hence would have had several earlier service numbers) before joining the 33rd/TRB. I can only conclude however, without evidence to the contrary, that Patch would have been allotted his 33/TRB service number at Sutton Veny (assuming 33/TRB was located there during his time as per his account).

Exeter was also the designated Record and Paymaster Office in Southern Command for the 8th Training Reserve Brigade (see image), But as noted by the main text of the relevant Army Council Instruction (see also below), TR numbers were to be allotted by the Officer Commanding the (TR) Battalion upon a man joining the Battalion - and that is why I was adamant in an earlier post that Jasper would have received his TR number upon turning up at 34/TRB in Wool (or wherever it was at the time).

It is possible however that Jasper was initially kitted out at Exeter (or even Bodmin, the Regimental Depot of the Cornwall Light Infantry) in analogy to Patch being kitted out at Taunton.

However, it's the Exmouth "spanner" which I think is the key to cracking the code.

Russ

 

[RussT]

Another tantalising mention of Exmouth having something to do with the 34th/TRB.

Percy Childs was originally called-up to the Army Service Corps on 02/11/1916 at Aldershot. He was transferred to the 34th/TRB on 08/01/1917 and was allotted the number TR/3/4666. His "Service Table" tells us his "Station" was Exmouth on 08/01/1917. Every time I have seen these Service Tables, the initial Station is invariably the location of the unit the soldier joined on the date given. In this example Exmouth refers to 34/TRB on 08/01/1917. So I'm still confused !

Images courtesy FMP

 

[RussT]

Here is an even better example - Stanley Edward Lowry. He was also originally ASC but was also transferred to the 34/TRB at Exmouth on 08/01/1917 (TR/8/4683). He stayed at Exmouth until 28/02/1917 when he then moved to Sutton Veny, arriving the the next day. He was also subjected to a Travelling Medical Board (TMB) assessment at Exmouth on 15/02/1917.

I think we have enough here to conclude that Jasper would have been at whatever this designated 34th/TRB-related unit was at Exmouth. He became ill there, was admitted to the local VAD hospital there and where he unfortunately died. I no longer have faith in the previous assertion that he was ever at Wool (or Sutton Veny). On that basis I can only conclude therefore that he was allotted his TR number at Exmouth.

I'm still hoping to find out exactly what this unit was at Exmouth.

Image courtesy FMP

 

 

[Johnd]

Hi Russ, it does certainly seem that Exmouth was definitely a specific destination to begin training in these examples, & so the first place Ernest would have reported to.

Very intriguing regarding exactly how these TRs were organised, & exactly where & what the facilities were in Exmouth; I believe there was a camp at Woodbury Common, which now houses some Royal Marine training areas, could this be the location to which they were being sent?

Regards

John 

[RussT]

Apparently there was back in the day a firing range at "Straight Point":

Camps in Exmouth? - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

I'm now beginning to contemplate that it was actually 34th/TRB itself as Exmouth - meaning that they were originally at Wool when created, moved to Exmouth towards the end of 1916/early 1917 and then moved again to Sutton Veny in March 1917.

Yet another record, which seems to be unambiguous (TR/8/4713 John Peacock ex ASC) in stating that 34/TRB was located at Exmouth:

 

[RussT]

A further Exmouth connection ...

Pte TR/8/4522 Montague Devonald Edwards of the 34th/TRB died of pneumonia at the BRC hospital Exmouth on 12/02/1917 and is buried at Littleham Churchyard, Exmouth.

Write-up here: Men of Denbury

 

[RussT]

Another one - Pte TR/8/4585 Douglas Long of the 34th/TRB - died 07/03/1917 and is buried back in his home village in Cornwall.

A local Cornish newspaper on 16/03/1917 reported the sad circumstances - he died at Exmouth.

 

[FROGSMILE]

An intriguing thread Russ.  I think the earlier comment by JohnD suggesting the camp on Woodbury Common is quite likely.  I know the area reasonably well as Woodbury was the home of my late wife and I visited there often.  The common had apparently been the site of military training since 1797, when it seems an encampment was first recorded there.  It is said, then to have become a typical annual military camping ground for auxiliaries and regulars, and by WW1 a camp city of rows of pale canvas tents was in permanent occupation there in an area known as Blackhill Camp along with picketed horse lines behind canvas screens (also described as ‘Woodbury camp’ see photos).

There are some WW1 graves in East Budleigh, nearby, and in WW2 when accommodation for troops under training was once again required a hutted camp was erected and Christened Dalditch Camp after a nearby feature.  It seems likely to me that that camp was close by the WW1 encampment known as Blackhill Camp and probably made use of anything remaining from WW1 (e.g. water aquifers).  As we know from other encampments the same grounds were often used during both world wars after a fallow period in between.

Exmouth, just 4-miles north of the camp, was the nearest large town with a mainline railway station, and so would have been the associated name for the tented area too I think, with rail warrants and other administrative matters referring to it, Exmouth, rather than Woodbury Common per se.  There is a young fellow, Simon Fogg, who seems to have spent a lot of effort researching the area and recording it, albeit with more of a focus on WW2.  See:https://wartimedalditchcamp.wordpress.com/dalditch-training-camp-the-royal-marines-history-on-woodbury-common-2/

Edited 2 May by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

Thank you for those observations Frogsmile - a clear history of the military (army) connection to Exmouth. Any Googling for the WW1 period just seems to bring up the records and information of a training ship at Exmouth but little more.

Of all the many 100s of Regimental Battalions described on the LLT, the only one ever apparently based at Exmouth was the 2/4th Battalion Devonshire Regiment TF, which moved there shortly after that 2nd Line TF formation was formed. But by December 1914 that Battalion had sailed away to India. Doing some background reading on the 2/4th's history might also shed some light on precisely where they were when at Exmouth. It seems no other Regimental Battalion was based there but, as you note, there was evidently a place and probably some facilities available to accommodate at least one unit.

As we know it's difficult enough working out where all the Regimental Reserve and Service Battalions were (whilst the latter were in the UK given War Diaries invariably only commence when a unit lands overseas) but it seems to be an order of magnitude harder task to track these Training Reserve Battalions even though they played such an important role for the efficient running of the army, the soldiers who served and trained in them and no doubt the life of the local community around the camp where they were located. A Thesis for someone perhaps. Whilst the LLT lists the locations of each TRB upon formation the formation of the Training Reserve on 01/09/1916, there is little to nothing written anywhere as to their possible movements after that date.

Given that men from disparate geographical areas were being brought together in a confined space and the medical capabilities of the time, it's inevitable that a certain small number of men would sadly succumb to some sort of illness following an outbreak. So one avenue for research in helping to establish the location of a given UK unit, is to track the deaths of solders whose unit was known to be e.g. a TRB - as per the 34th/TRB examples posted above with an apparent Exmouth connection. Care is needed of course because men were often transported back to their family home - as per Jasper & Long posted above - but then local newspaper accounts, if published and found, of those deaths provides the key insight. Some, of course, will be buried where they sadly died - Edwards being an example it seems.

 

[Johnd]

Having re-read the extract from Harry Patch's book, I wonder if perhaps these units were not so fixed to individual locations; could it be that Exmouth was used to train new recruits in the absolute basics as well as possibly confirming their physical suitability, before moving them on to other locations for more advanced & specific training?

As far as Ernest's death goes, he was obviously one of a number who died of disease in the same way, as he to had also had measles, (pneumonia often being a complication arising from measles); it seems as though they may have had an outbreak of measles amongst the recruits at that time, (there was an outbreak in the US Army in 1917/18 that caused more than 3000 deaths).

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, RussT said:

Thank you for those observations Frogsmile - a clear history of the military (army) connection to Exmouth. Any Googling for the WW1 period just seems to bring up the records and information of a training ship at Exmouth but little more.

Of all the many 100s of Regimental Battalions described on the LLT, the only one ever apparently based at Exmouth was the 2/4th Battalion Devonshire Regiment TF, which moved there shortly after that 2nd Line TF formation was formed. But by December 1914 that Battalion had sailed away to India. Doing some background reading on the 2/4th's history might also shed some light on precisely where they were when at Exmouth. It seems no other Regimental Battalion was based there but, as you note, there was evidently a place and probably some facilities available to accommodate at least one unit.

As we know it's difficult enough working out where all the Regimental Reserve and Service Battalions were (whilst the latter were in the UK given War Diaries invariably only commence when a unit lands overseas) but it seems to be an order of magnitude harder task to track these Training Reserve Battalions even though they played such an important role for the efficient running of the army, the soldiers who served and trained in them and no doubt the life of the local community around the camp where they were located. A Thesis for someone perhaps. Whilst the LLT lists the locations of each TRB upon formation the formation of the Training Reserve on 01/09/1916, there is little to nothing written anywhere as to their possible movements after that date.

Given that men from disparate geographical areas were being brought together in a confined space and the medical capabilities of the time, it's inevitable that a certain small number of men would sadly succumb to some sort of illness following an outbreak. So one avenue for research in helping to establish the location of a given UK unit, is to track the deaths of solders whose unit was known to be e.g. a TRB - as per the 34th/TRB examples posted above with an apparent Exmouth connection. Care is needed of course because men were often transported back to their family home - as per Jasper & Long posted above - but then local newspaper accounts, if published and found, of those deaths provides the key insight. Some, of course, will be buried where they sadly died - Edwards being an example it seems.

 

I too uncovered some details of the 4th Devon’s presence at Exmouth and found that they were there in July 1914 attending their annual summer training camp at ‘Woodbury Camp’ when they received the order to mobilise. See: (scroll down)  https://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/camp.php?pid=93

It seems clear that there was no other facility and I can only assume that it is also where the 34th TR were for a period.  Being located in the sunny South West it would’ve been well suited for summer training under canvas, with ranges nearby, access to water, and suitable training land.  There was also a branch line railway to nearby East Budleigh, which would have been useful for supply. I suspect that the TR moved to Sutton Veny in the autumn/winter, where there were huts.

Living under canvas was fine for a few weeks in summer, but an entirely different thing when inclement weather sets in (drying clothing adequately a particular issue) and we know this became a problem that was solved eventually by moving men into often self-built Armstrong huts.

I agree with your comments about the paucity of information tracing TR units movement and suspect that much of that movement related to moving from tentage to huts.

It seems to me that you’re bang on the money with your suggestion that tracing sickness and deaths is likely to reveal the movement, as I imagine that many men succumbed from ailments picked up while living under canvas in poor weather and sometimes unsanitary conditions.

Common problems appear to have been pneumonia (probably brought on by wet clothing combined with low temperatures at night) and contagious diseases like measles, that spread like wildfire in communal tentage.  There were no antibiotics, or penicillin, so the mortality rates must have been relatively high. I’ve read in a separate study that moving into proper hutments led to sickness rates plummeting.

Edited 2 May by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

I come late to this thread but have been visiting it because I too know the Woodbury area very well - I used to live in nearby Sidmouth, and Woodbury Common is still used for training by marines from Lympstone. To confirm what has already been suggested: it would be quite unexceptional  for soldiers camped on Woodbury Common to be "at Exmouth", which is rather more identifiable to the world at large. I have many times considered how accurate a location in Wiltshire is. Shortly after the war began, a new camp south of Swindon was initially named "Draycott" after a tiny hamlet  but there were two other Draycotts served by railway stations in Somerset and Derbyshire; very soon it was known as Chisledon, a nearby village with its own station.

As for TRB movements, when responding in another thread the other day, I observed that tracking such battalions could be difficult (and RussB, above, has confirmed this). FWIT I have the 34th at Sutton Veny in May 1917 and then at Durrington, Wiltshire (not the Sussex one).

And, happily for me, my Googling has led to this.

[RussT]

I've just been having a look at the "History of the Devonshire Regiment in the Great War" and, as referenced by Frogsmile, it does indeed mention that the Devon & Cornwall Brigade TF was at its annual camp at Woodbury Common during the summer of 1914. The book does go on to refer to the raising of its 2nd Line TF Battalions but it does not refer to where the 2/4th Bn TF was prior to its departure to India in December 1914 although I think it is logical that it must have been at Woodbury Common in line with the LLT stating it was at Exmouth. Evidently the Common was large enough, in principle at least, to accommodate Brigade strength numbers.

I'm going through more Service Records of 34/TRB men to see if I can track this unit's movements. It looks like I have a reference to Exmouth being mentioned in a Soldier's record back to 25/10/1916. So far therefore from various Service Records it looks like we can bound the time the 34/TRB was at Exmouth between at least 25/10/1916 and at most 01/03/1917 (and Sutton Veny from that latter date which is consistent with Moonraker's knowledge of it being there in May 1917).

 

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, RussT said:

but it does not refer to where the 2/4th Bn TF was prior to its departure to India in December 1914 although I think it is logical that it must have been at Woodbury Common in line with the LLT stating it was at Exmouth. Evidently the Common was large enough, in principle at least, to accommodate Brigade strength numbers.

Russ did you note the account of Bandsman. Charles George Davis 4th Btn. Devonshire Regiment that I linked above (you have to scroll the page down)?  As his battalion then went straight to India I’m assuming he was referring to 2/4th although the piece mentions just 4th.