Which copy of original documents is correct

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening All

Could I ask a rather complicated question please. I am trying to find out which document is correct. To understand what I mean you will have to use the CWGC site Find the dead. Type in the casualty Branch G East Yorkshire Regiment. When you open the page for the casualty look at the concentration document you will notice an unknown CQMS of the Royal Army Service Corps showing location where found and items found on the remains 1914 Riband 4 blue chevrons.. Now look at the other grave registration report and you will notice that it also shows unknown CQMS RASC but it has been crossed out and replaced with unknown BS (British Soldier). Which document is correct. I cannot see someone making a mistake with those 2 ranks.

I would really like to find out because if the typed burial return (Concentration) is correct We are pretty sure we know who it is. Ther were only 10 casualties with the rank of CSM and CQMS belonging to the RASC killed during the whole of ww1 and 9 have named graves and one is on the Arras Memorial. Hope someone can advise

Kind Regards

Andy

 

[jay dubaya]

To save searching I've added extracts from the documents in question from Bancourt BC.

The shoulder strap suggests an RASC title was present on the tunic which also defined the remaining identifiable criteria, a 14 Star Ribband but no red overseas chevron.? Sgt and WO II ranks are a grey area for me, I've seen a couple of howlers when it comes to misidentified ranks. I'm sure you may have noticed the Staff Sgt also on the Arras Memorial and I realise the following relates to Infantry and will deviate for corps etc, but to quote @Muerrisch

'RQMS. He was a QMS [this was a rank, very complicated lineage from First Class Staff Sergeants] appointed RQMS, and distinguished by adding an eight pointed star above four chevrons lower sleeve, point uppermost. Other QMS would be Orderly Room Sergeant usually, no star. Although drum major [more correctly drum sergeant] etc no longer First Class, retained 4 chevrons'.

'When ranks and appointments were altered in 1915 the RQMS was an appointment for WO II, as also was CSM, thus at least 5 WO II in battalion. It became necessary to distinguish the RQMS who added a wreath around his rank badge to show his appointment'.

The RU prefix which strongly suggests an inquiry was made which may appear to have produced no satisfactory result to the extent the unit was also dropped. The dates on the documents suggest this was all completed under the auspices of the Army and not the IWGC.

In answer to your question, I suspect, in essense, both documents are correct. The officer in charge of the exhumation appears confident in his identification and the subsequent inquiry is confident with the unfortunate decision. The relationship of the tunic and its association to the remains may appear to be the issue.

Do any diary extracts corroborate the burial location, do any service files exist?

 

 

[andrew pugh]

Hi Jay

Thank you for your very helpful and in-depth information.

We are pretty sure that it is CQMS CMT/3591 Alfred William Chandler 1st GHQ Reserve MT Coy who was killed on the 24/03/1918. The location he was found is just south of Barastre a short distance from Bancourt British Cemetery.. How could someone  not be able to not know if it is a CQMS or an ordinary soldier. On the spread sheet cemetery list he is listed as an unknown Commonwealth soldier. According to the war diary they were not to far away from Barastre on the 24/03/1918.

I look forward to your thoughts

 

Kind Regards

Andy

11 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

To save searching I've added extracts from the documents in question from Bancourt BC.

The shoulder strap suggests an RASC title was present on the tunic which also defined the remaining identifiable criteria, a 14 Star Ribband but no red overseas chevron.? Sgt and WO II ranks are a grey area for me, I've seen a couple of howlers when it comes to misidentified ranks. I'm sure you may have noticed the Staff Sgt also on the Arras Memorial and I realise the following relates to Infantry and will deviate for corps etc, but to quote @Muerrisch

'RQMS. He was a QMS [this was a rank, very complicated lineage from First Class Staff Sergeants] appointed RQMS, and distinguished by adding an eight pointed star above four chevrons lower sleeve, point uppermost. Other QMS would be Orderly Room Sergeant usually, no star. Although drum major [more correctly drum sergeant] etc no longer First Class, retained 4 chevrons'.

'When ranks and appointments were altered in 1915 the RQMS was an appointment for WO II, as also was CSM, thus at least 5 WO II in battalion. It became necessary to distinguish the RQMS who added a wreath around his rank badge to show his appointment'.

The RU prefix which strongly suggests an inquiry was made which may appear to have produced no satisfactory result to the extent the unit was also dropped. The dates on the documents suggest this was all completed under the auspices of the Army and not the IWGC.

In answer to your question, I suspect, in essense, both documents are correct. The officer in charge of the exhumation appears confident in his identification and the subsequent inquiry is confident with the unfortunate decision. The relationship of the tunic and its association to the remains may appear to be the issue.

Do any diary extracts corroborate the burial location, do any service files exist?

 

 

 

[Muerrisch]

10 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

To save searching I've added extracts from the documents in question from Bancourt BC.

The shoulder strap suggests an RASC title was present on the tunic which also defined the remaining identifiable criteria, a 14 Star Ribband but no red overseas chevron.? Sgt and WO II ranks are a grey area for me, I've seen a couple of howlers when it comes to misidentified ranks. I'm sure you may have noticed the Staff Sgt also on the Arras Memorial and I realise the following relates to Infantry and will deviate for corps etc, but to quote @Muerrisch

'RQMS. He was a QMS [this was a rank, very complicated lineage from First Class Staff Sergeants] appointed RQMS, and distinguished by adding an eight pointed star above four chevrons lower sleeve, point uppermost. Other QMS would be Orderly Room Sergeant usually, no star. Although drum major [more correctly drum sergeant] etc no longer First Class, retained 4 chevrons'.

'When ranks and appointments were altered in 1915 the RQMS was an appointment for WO II, as also was CSM, thus at least 5 WO II in battalion. It became necessary to distinguish the RQMS who added a wreath around his rank badge to show his appointment'.

The RU prefix which strongly suggests an inquiry was made which may appear to have produced no satisfactory result to the extent the unit was also dropped. The dates on the documents suggest this was all completed under the auspices of the Army and not the IWGC.

In answer to your question, I suspect, in essense, both documents are correct. The officer in charge of the exhumation appears confident in his identification and the subsequent inquiry is confident with the unfortunate decision. The relationship of the tunic and its association to the remains may appear to be the issue.

Do any diary extracts corroborate the burial location, do any service files exist?

 

 

Weird. Neither CQMS nor CSM were ranks

[jay dubaya]

On second thoughts this may boil down to the rank identified on the CoG-BR, CQMS and Staff Sgt both recogognisable as crown above three chevrons? I suspect the inquiry identified both Chandler (noted as serving under an alias) and Gosden as the potential candidate and there was no way to tell which one was buried in Bancourt BC. Both men were entitled to a 1914 Star and 4 blue OS chevrons, although I'm baffled by the lack of a red one. Gosden (17th Divisional Train) died of wounds at 51st FA stationed in Barastre on 21st March, with elements of 17th Divisional Train in and around Bancourt at the time. He has surviving service records which confirm the location of his death but no burial is recorded. Chandler's death is recorded as 24th March on or since, which suggests no known burial although his MIC records KiA-4.18.

One could suggest that Gosden may have been buried without his tunic since he had been admitted and died at a medical facility but that is just speculation. As it stands this appears to be a tricky case and may prove difficult to gain further merit in favour of one or the other. 

The biggest question for me at present is why the remains were stripped of all identifiable criteria and became just an UBS.

 

 

[andrew pugh]

Hi Jay

Once again thank you for replying. You are right CQMS Chandler did use an alias it was Alfred Gresham, it was his stage name, he was an actor by profession. He also has 2 Medal Index Cards which prove this to be the case. What I cannot understand is this. There must have been a hand written copy of the Grave Registration document before it was finalised and typed up. The red line through the casualty indicating that he is now an unknown British soldier and not a CQMS of the RASC should not really have been typed. Also why hasn't the typed Concentration form been amended to reflect what is on the Typed copy of the Burial Return. It seems a bit late to make those amendments at the typed stage. The same scenario appears on the headstone schedule. What I am trying to say is this. If there was doubt about the rank when the Burial Return was first hand written then they would not have typed the casualty up as a CQMS and the same with the Concentration form the original hand written copy would reflect the same. Why ha the Concentration form been altered. Regarding the4 Overseas Chevrons was there a cut off period for the red one, i don't know much about these chevron other than you get one for each completed year of overseas service, and there was a 5th one i understand for Russian service after the war. I agree this is going to be a tough nut to crack. I wonder what the CWGC would have to say or even the JCCC.

Once again Thanks for your help and advice on this.

Kind Regards

Andy    

[andrew pugh]

Hi again 

The other thing I can't understand is The unknown CQMS of the RASC has become an unknown British soldier, and on the modern spread sheet version of Bancourt British Cemetery he has been entered as an unknown Commonwealth soldier. It gets deeper

Regards

Andy

[jay dubaya]

22 minutes ago, andrew pugh said:

and on the modern spread sheet version of Bancourt British Cemetery he has been entered as an unknown Commonwealth soldier.

Which spreadsheet is this? The CWGC spreadsheet doesn't record the unknowns.

[Simon Birch]

The secret ones do. I am working on this case with Andy - PM me if you want to see the unknowns one and I will send you a copy of the Bancourt one.

Simon

10 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Which spreadsheet is this? The CWGC spreadsheet doesn't record the unknowns.

 

[jay dubaya]

3 minutes ago, Simon Birch said:

The secret ones do. I am working on this case with Andy - PM me if you want to see the unknowns one and I will send you a copy of the Bancourt one.

Simon

 

Thanks Simon, Andy has already passed them over. I’ll have a look later and post back here.

[Simon Birch]

No worries!

Simon

[jay dubaya]

19 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

on the modern spread sheet version of Bancourt British Cemetery he has been entered as an unknown Commonwealth soldier.

Ah, I didn't realise the CWGC shared these spreadsheets, I'm used to the database download version which doesn't include the unknowns. The reason the grave is recorded as Unknown Commonwealth Forces is perhaps this term is a cover all description when no identifiable criteria is listed (for the many). I note only one Unknown British Regiment (I'm off to find this one) and one Unknown Welsh Regiment (as far as I'm aware there was only one Welsh Regiment). To be honest I'm not sure I like the spreadsheet, whilst it is good for a headcount of unknowns it lacks much of the information recorded on the original documents... just like this case. I'm old and fickle and somewhat prefer to make my own way through the burial returns

From what I now understand an ASC CQMS and an ASC Staff Sgt wore the same insignia; three stripes with crown above, I've seen this several times recorded on CoG-BR as Sgt Major, and the shoulder strap can only have identified ASC not RASC. Both men in question were entitled to wear a red OS chevron but this is not recorded and both were entitled to a 1914 Star riband. Both are known to have been in the vacinity of Barastre, Gosden is known to have died at 51st FA at there, it is probable Chandler was reported missing prior to being assumed dead on or after 24th March 1918. Therefore, the criteria on the CoG-BR identifies both Chandler (Gresham) and Gosden.

Have the ICRC records been checked? 

The exhumation may appear to have taken place around October 1919 by 182nd or 189th Labour Coy and the officer in charge may have been a wartime commission only, his ignorance betrayed by the NCO rank red herring. I can give no plausable explanation why all the identifiable criteria was stripped from the remains and sadly I think the reason will remain lost in time. For this case to gain any merit, this element would need to be addressed first, until then, all we have is a completely unknown soldier.

[andrew pugh]

Hi

Once again thank you for your in-depth reply. 

Record show that Gosden died of wounds on the 21st March 1918, indicating that he must have been wounded prior to that date. Records also state that he died while in the care of the 51st Field Ambulance on the 21st. The 51st Field Ambulance were at a location called the Slag Heap near Hermies. which is some distance to the N/east. So that is the location where he must have died and could not have been found just to the south of Barastre.

51st Field Ambulance  movements

21st-22nd Slag Heap Hermies

23rd 11am left Bus for Beaulencourt

24th La Boisselle

I hope I am right

Kind Regards

Andy

 

[jay dubaya]

Well you're not wrong Andy, I hadn't looked in the 51st FA diary, I looked in the ADMS diary which has added to my now, confusion. ADMS record the 51st FA moving to Barastre on the 23rd (my mistake with date) and recieving patients from 24th. A better read of the 17th Divisional Train diary records Gosden KiA on 21st March at Velu, some 5000 yards to the NE. On the crest of the wave Chandler certainly now appears the most likely candidate - do you have a reference handy for the relevant unit diary?

 

[andrew pugh]

Hi Jay

Once again thanks' for replying. I looked it up on Ancestry asking for the 17th Division War diary. If the remains of Staff Sergeant Gosden were recovered it is most likely he could be buried in Hermies Hill Cemetery or even Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension, who knows? The location of the Spoil Heap is on the bank of the Canal Du Nord. near Hermies.

As you may be aware over the recent years I have successfully identified 4 soldiers, 2 of whom were found at 57c.I.32.c.8.0. Twenty Two casualties were buried here and they were originally found by the 182nd Labour Coy. I believe they were part of an Irish unit. I contacted the JCCC and spoke to one of the ladies I know, I explained the situation with the documentation even she said that was too big a discrepancy and that we should take it up with the CWGC. I am pretty sure Simon and I will do just that and plod on with this case.

Once again thank you for your helpful input.

Kind Regards

Andy 

[jay dubaya]

Happy to muddy the water where I can Andy. I’d appreciate a heads up on any future developments with this case… it’s an odd one for sure.