Searching for info on Sydney Thomas Sandell

[Niko]

Hi everybody,

I am a bit confused. A collegue asked me if I could find out how 2 of his ancestors met during WW1 in Scheveningen, Holland.

Dorothea Lathouwers, born in Antwerp in 1894 and a Belgian nurse, met Sydney Thomas Sandell, a British sailor, born on 25 March 1889 most probably wounded. They fell in love and got married and went to live in the UK, where both died.

Nothing strange here.

But then, it starts. I can find Sydney's service record prewar: M3096, with another birthyear: 25 March 1890

Service File Royal Navy

By looking further into his WW1 service, I came upon THOMAS Sandell, Z/5116, but with yet another birthyear: 25 March 1897

Service File Royal Naval Division

Now, his service file seems to tick off several of the things we know: sailor, wounded, second name Thomas, birthday and - month, but of course, there are a lot of discrepancies here.

Is anybody able to help me any further? The family would like to know how these two met and what they did in Scheveningen, Holland 1918-1919.

Is this just coïncidence or are these one and the same person?

 

Edited 25 April by Niko

[KizmeRD]

Sidney Thomas Sandell was a sick berth attendant who joined the navy in June 1911, but who got into trouble in 1913 after stealing some money and deserting. He was caught and sentenced to 90 days imprisonment and afterward discharged from the navy ‘Services no longer required’.

He would probably not have re-enlisted in the navy during WW1, and most likely served in the army instead, or perhaps (maybe) in the mercantile marine.

Sidney Thomas Sandell and Thomas Sandell are unlikely to be the same man -  judging from the discrepancy in their heights.

His wife was born in Lillo, Antwerp, Sep 30 1894 and after the war they lived together in St Mary’s, Essex. They had three children, two girls and a boy.

MB

 

Edited 25 April by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

I agree.

A couple of possible pointers from the 1911-13 RN record (ADM 188) of M.3096 :-

a.     His 12-year engagement was ended by his discharge “Services No Longer Required” on completion of a period of imprisonment.

b.    Hr served as a Sick Berth Attendant.

c.     P.o.b. London;  D.o.b. 25 Mar 1890 (

Moving to the RND record from 1915 to 1919 (ADM 339) of London Z/5116 RNVR:-

a.     It appears that this man did not declare any previous service.

b.    P.o.b. Not stated;  Address Whitechapel London;  D.o.b. 25 Mar 1897 [N.B. 7-8 years younger.]

It is possible that a man enlisting in the RND in 1915 might wish to conceal a previous period of imprisonment (for desertion and theft of money from his ship-mates) and discharge SNLR by obfuscating this information and dropping the forename Sidney. Equally, they could be different men.

This RND/RNVR rating served exclusively in the RND Hood Battalion in France. His wounding was handled in the BEF and there is nothing to link him with Scheveningen, Holland, “during WW1”. He was demobilised on 20 Feb 1919 having spent the last two weeks of January on leave in the UK.

You  do not state the date of marriage but, based on the lack of any positive link between them, my inclination is to say these are two different men. I think  that the RN rating M.3096, is the most likely groom but his employment during WW1 is unclear. Could he previous RN trade of Sick Berth Attendant be a link to a Belgian nurse?

 

[Niko]

Thank you both.

They married December 2, 1918 in Scheveningen, Holland.

I agree that M3096 is the correct person, hence the mystery stays, or even grows.....

 

[KizmeRD]

FYI - see https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060022921 (IWM film clip of interned British soldiers at Scheveningen, Holland).

Perhaps Dorothea was a Belgian nurse looking after the medical needs of interned soldiers in the camp?

MB

[Niko]

Thank you!

Great images and it confirms partially what our first thought was: an internee....

But still no further trace and it seems mostly Army personnel.

[KizmeRD]

As we have already stated, although Sidney Thomas Sandell was in the pre-war navy, he’d got kicked out in 1913 and its highly unlikely that the navy would have taken him back - so the working assumption is that he served in the army during the actual war, possibly getting himself interned in neutral Holland.

MB

Edited 25 April by KizmeRD

[Tawhiri]

Interestingly, a search on Ancestry is bringing up a Sydney Thomas Sandall in the UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920 collection, along with the previously mentioned RN seaman's service record. Not sure if it's the same man, as I can only see the search results, but it might be worth a closer look to see if there is a connection.

Edited 25 April by Tawhiri

[KizmeRD]

Between January and April 1918, under a prisoner exchange scheme brokered by the International Red Cross, some 2000 to 3000 British P-o-W’s were transferred from prison camps in Germany to more benign internment in neutral Holland (largely in and around Scheveningen, a pleasant seaside town close to The Hague). The vast majority of these men had been taken prisoner early on in the war, and after years in captivity they were considered in need of some (partial) relief from their suffering.
As internees in Holland they were far better treated, enjoying easier living conditions, with much improved food and care. During the day they would be let out on parole (they were however required to avoid drinking alcohol), and needed to return to their billets before curfew in the evening.

MB

[horatio2]

3 hours ago, Niko said:

a Belgian nurse, met Sydney Thomas Sandell, a British sailor

1 hour ago, Niko said:

They married December 2, 1918 in Scheveningen, Holland.

The Army internee theory is very plausible for their meeting but do the above statements appear on the marriage certificate? Perhaps he 'went nautical' after release from internment.

[Niko]

53 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Interestingly, a search on Ancestry is bringing up a Sydney Thomas Sandall in the UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920 collection, along with the previously mentioned RN seaman's service record. Not sure if it's the same man, as I can only see the search results, but it might be worth a closer look to see if there is a connection.

Thank you, that might be him, indeed!

 

[horatio2]

RHC Sydney Thomas SANDALL   =   Sidney Thomas SANDELL RN?

[KizmeRD]

I don’t think the Royal Hospital Chelsea Sandall can be the same person, as Sidney (aka Sydney) Thomas Sandell died Feb 5 1956 whilst still living in the family home, together with his Belgian born wife Dorothea (‘Hawkwell’, St Mary’s, Essex).

MB

Edited 25 April by KizmeRD

[Niko]

There's been a deveoplment, we came across a picture of (what I think) Army troops and he's in it -- with another name: CHARLES SIDNEY SANDLE

And then..... Nothing I can find on that name either:

[KizmeRD]

Well at least it’s clear he didn’t re-enlist in the navy (and clearly he wasn’t a guardsman either). Given the new information, perhaps a new posting on the soldiers sub-forum might reveal more (they might be better able to identify his regiment from the uniform) - But it’s always difficult to trace when a man when he enlisted under a disguised name.

MB