CWGC Response to request to change a death date

[davidbohl]

L/Cpl Leonard Herbert Pringle 17928 KLR CWGC

This chaps military documentation gives a death date of 3rd July 1916 but cwgc hold the 1st July 1916 so asked them to change it. They have replied using broad generalisations to defend their case, is this common?

"After reviewing the evidence we have made the decision not to amend Lance Corporal Pringle's date of death. Whilst the military documentation does list his date of death as 3/7/16, this is in contrast to our grave registration documents which list it as 1/7/16. We know from our records that Lance Corporal Pringle was directly buried into the grave in the immediate aftermath of his death, rather than being moved there at a later date, therefore we have to presume that the grave registration documents are correct. Furthermore, as Lance Corporal Pringle was killed during the Somme it is highly plausible that due to the unprecedented numbers of soldiers killed that reporting of his death could have been delayed by 48 hours, hence why military documents have his date of death listed as 3/7/16. 

Before a Commission headstone was installed on Lance Corporal Pringle's grave, a verification process would have occurred to check the details of his commemoration. Therefore, without overwhelming evidence that there is an error in our records we will keep the historic integrity of Lance Corporal Pringle's commemoration. "

Dave

 

[Michelle Young]

I asked them to change a date and I’ve heard nothing….

[Ancre1917]

Thanks for this, David. I’ve just put in a change of death date request for a North Staffordshire soldier whose record shows he died on 2 April 1918. Actually , this is his burial date as recorded by the German sanitary company and sent to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). Other records show he died on 21 March or just after when Bullecourt and Écoust St. Mein were overwhelmed. I’ve sent all the accompanying evidence and am now awaiting a reply. How long did it take for your case to be answered?

Richard

[davidbohl]

8 minutes ago, Ancre1917 said:

How long did it take for your case to be answered?

Richard, quite recently actually 3rd March but my requests vary from next day to donkeys years.

Best of luck with them !

[Ancre1917]

Thanks for that, David. I wait in hope then!

Richard

 

[Terry_Reeves]

Whilst I can’t comment on this particular case, it is my experience that service records are far from infallible  in many areas of a soldiers service, including dates of death. 
TR

 

[Michelle Young]

I’ve just checked the CWGC site, my request (a date of death wrong on the database) has been amended. 

[jay dubaya]

SDGW has had an amendment made to his DoD citing David Maddocks book, originally 3rd and amended to 1st. The soldiers effects register records 3rd. I’ve just had a quick look at the 89th TMB WD but doesn’t appear to help much. A family grave also records his DoD as 1st. I don’t think you’ll get much further with the CWGC and as for their responses… don’t get me started.

[davidbohl]

37 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

SDGW has had an amendment made to his DoD citing David Maddocks book

It's difficult to know who rules the roost, a book has convinced sdgw?

41 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

I’ve just had a quick look at the 89th TMB WD but doesn’t appear to help much.

See the bio we have done on him, he was killed accidentally https://www.liverpoolpals.com/soldier/?i=2042/17928-L/Cpl-leonard-herbert-pringle

[jay dubaya]

Dave, appologies, I've just sat down at the PC and looked again at the 89th TMB WD. The appendix for 1st July mentions an explosion at the sap head of the left section - one man killed and four wounded. Knowing this now points to 1st July being the correct date of death for Pringle and an erroneous date being recorded in official documents and his personnel file.

J

[thetrenchrat22]

When I was looking at the death Lt K T Frost of the Cheshire Regiment on the 24th August 1914 in the 1990’s,  Officers died and CWGC had the date of death as 3rd September 1914.  The CWGC only change it to the 25th August 1914 as that appears on the death certificate.  

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, thetrenchrat22 said:

death certificate

Overseas DC available from GRO - a bit of a faff/longer and more expensive route but you can get a brand new hand-scripted copy DC taken off the military overseas deaths register if you want [I think you may need to/have to get one for WW1 military O/S deaths]

Of course being taken from an essentially military document it is probably most likely to hold the military line of 3 Jul 1916 [note all, well most anyway, military documents do tend to be a bit 'incestuous' and this can easily transfer in to pension documents too, as also apppears in this case]

Be warned however such a register is not necessarily infallible [since I have previously identified my GU's recorded age at death was wrong! - I definitively proved it was wrong and got the record retrospectively changed/altered/added to - but that's another story] and CWGC may use that as a further general possibility/reason to go with the staus quo [they have form for doing so, especially for maligning the Ministry of Pensions and pension records - they do seem to love generalisations, and questionable ones at that]  However their explanation based on their own documents does seem quite understandable at the moment and military tardiness a possibility.

It certainly is a puzzle.

A DC has to be the 'killer' document.   Whatever is on the official record ... then that's the official record - I can't see how CWGC could challenge that [contemporary military/GRO -v- contemporary CWGC ... I know which one I would back then].

Just depends if you want to go that far.  Would be interested to learn what transpires.

M

Edited 25 April by Matlock1418