4728 Pte V Francis 1/4th Hants, later MFP (and MPSC)

[Tom Andrews]

Dear all,

This is my first post on this forum, having been a long time member of other forums related to the Great War.

I have the BWM/VM of Pte Victor (George) Francis, originally a member of 1/4th Hampshires, with whom he served in France from 7 Jan 1916 to 11 Nov 1918 (and probably beyond).  He was born around 1898 so would have been a young volunteer.

At some point he transferred to the Military Foot Police - does anyone know the criteria for being able to transfer?  One would have thought that the Army tried to keep as many men in the infantry as possible.

Clearly he had a taste for the legal side of things, as he stayed on in the Regular Army gaining a LSGC sometime around 1935 as 7682529 Sgt, MPSC (Military Provost Staff Corps), becoming an RSM (and Garrison Sergeant Major) before being commissioned on 14 Nov 1940.  His career after that is unknown.

 

Thanks for looking

[RussT]

3 hours ago, Tom Andrews said:

At some point he transferred to the Military Foot Police

Do you know that for sure - or is it an assumption?

His MFP number of P/18519 was allotted in autumn 1919 - so it is possible he was already discharged post war from the Hampshire Regiment and he had decided to re-enlist into the MFP. Given he was serving with the MFP whilst the medal rolls were being compiled, then it is natural that he appears on their roll for medal entitlement administrative purposes.

There are papers for P/18517 (later 7681612) who enlisted in Portsmouth on 12/09/1919 - he had previously served in the RGA (1910-1918).

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

Adding some additional number/dates

P/18515 enlisted 01/09/1919 became 7682526 (he was previously Grenadier Guards)

P/18520 enlisted 13/09/1919 became 7682530 (he was previously RAMC)

All these men attested for 1 Year Short Service on Army Form B2515.

Russ

[Provost]

Hi Tom,

Welcome to the forum. Victor was born at Portswood near Southampton, and joined the 1/4th Bn Hampshire Regt TF No 4728 on 26th April 1916. He served in India and Salonika, and  was discharged on 21st April 1919 and was awarded the Victory Medal.

He re-enlisted into the Military Foot Police - allotted Corps No P18519 - at Portsmouth on 8th September 1919 aged 23 years 237 days, and lists Printer as his occupation. He was posted to Germany as part of the British Army of the Rhine.

On 15th January 1924, he married Jean Quinn at Belfast. Their children were Victor Charles, born 3rd December 1924 and Josephine Marie born 12th October 1925 - both children were born in Cologne which is where the Military Police Corps HQ BAOR was located.

Having transferred to the Military Provost Staff Corps on 23rd February 1921, he was discharged as a WO1 on 13th November 1940 at Aldershot under King's Regulations 1940 para 390 (xvii) (on Commission as a Lieutenant in the General Service Corps).

You ask about criteria for joining the Corps, with so many soldiers being demobilised after the War, one area which badly needed personnel was the Provost Arm. There are a number of newspaper appeals from 1919 for recruits, and some former policemen who had been sacked as a result of the 1919 police strike were encouraged to apply to join.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Richard

[RussT]

24 minutes ago, Provost said:

joined the 1/4th Bn Hampshire Regt TF No 4728 on 26th April 1916

Is that correct? His Medal Roll indicates he first served overseas on 07/01/1916.

25 minutes ago, Provost said:

He served in India and Salonika

Also interesting. I understand the 1/4th Hants did not serve in Salonika. Out of all the Battalions of the Hants, the 10th and 12th did deploy in Salonika. Do you know or think he was therefore posted from the 1/4th to either the 10th or 12th?

27 minutes ago, Provost said:

and was awarded the Victory Medal

His Medal Roll tells us he was entitled to the both the VM and BWM. Does your information tell us differently and that he was only entitled to the VM (even though Salonika was a theatre of war - unless he served there after war's end)?

His Medal Roll is also odd in suggesting he served in Theatre of War codes 4 and 5 (Egypt and Africa as per the Codes from Jan 1916)

Anyway, a few apparent anomalies that might be useful to help clarify if possible even if the OP has no interest in these details.

Regards

Russ

 

[Provost]

Here is the MIC I have for for him

Cheers,

Richard

[RussT]

The MIC seems clear and the better quality version on Ancestry seems equally clear - i.e. there are no identifiable faint ditto marks under the VM roll reference.

However, if he was entitled to the VM, as noted on his MIC, then I understand he would automatically be entitled to the BWM.

Regards

Russ

 

[Tom Andrews]

Dear all, thanks for the very interesting updates.  I am not a regular Ancestry user, so could not navigate the mass of hits for this name very well.

Medals (Pictured) - obviously he had the BWM, all medals are correct.

His overseas service now seems unsure - as above 1/4th Hamps were in France. Hampshire Battalions in India that were sent elsewhere were sent to the Middle East and the 9th went to Russia. Some saw service in the 3rd Afghan War.  I had not looked at the theatre code on the roll.

is the information above available online - could someone point me to it if so?

And is there any information about his WW2 service? I can only get his commission date from the London Gazette, nothing else

 

thanks again.

[charlie962]

A few thoughts.

As a Hants Territorial he should have been renumbered 1917 to a six digit number starting in the 2xxxxx series.

A lot of 1/4th Hants men served in Mespot.

Using the date of marriage and age provided by Provost we get a birth date of 14/1/1896. The MoD hold an officer file for V G Francis with this birth date. The file may well contain info on his earlier service. Ancestry give the MoD references as:

Name V G Francis

Birth Date14 Jan 1896

Service Number P154751

RankArmy Officers

ReferenceNumber

AOP000211697

Charlie

[RussT]

29 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

As a Hants Territorial he should have been renumbered 1917 to a six digit number starting in the 2xxxxx series

Yes, I had worked it out that it would have been around 2022xx (4703 became 202201 and 4754 became 202251)

But there would actually be no reason for this 6-digit number to be on his MIC/Medal Roll. The only requirement was for the Regimental details (Regiment and number) of the unit he was in when he first landed overseas (i.e. Hampshire Regiment and 4728) for the purposes of correctly naming his medals and the Regimental details of the unit in which he last served i.e. the MFP as they were responsible for administrating the entitlement and issuing of his medals. He could have served in 1000s of intermediate units between the first and last but none of those details are actually required. That we do sometimes find those intermediate details on MICs & Medal Rolls is a bonus for us later researchers given the loss of so many Service Records.

So the lack of his 6-digit TF number does not mean necessarily that he transferred out of the Hampshire Regiment before the re-numbering (early 1917).

Of course, he might well have been commissioned as per the suggestion but that would have meant revering later to a "lowly" L/Cpl in the MFP. Stranger things have happened.

 Regards

Russ

[Provost]

Afternoon,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I'll post the service part of his entry in the MPC 358 Register. All the other info is as per my earlier reply.

Cheers

Richard

 

 

Edited Sunday at 17:00 by Provost

[Provost]

This is where the info ref India and Salonika came from.

Cheers

Richard

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, Provost said:

This is where the info ref India and Salonika came from.

Cheers

Richard

In between his two India periods there is 1916/17 IEF which I believe is probably IEF (D) that was in Mespot.

Charlie

IEF = Indian Expeditionary Force

Edited Sunday at 20:01 by charlie962