45th Training Battalion - could have previously served overseas?

[Will86]

In trying to find which regiment a friend's ancestor served in, we obtained a death certificate (sadly) of a son who died young, on it it stated the father was a Private in the 45th Training Battalion, this was in May, 1917, which I assume only served at home? Is it possible he was invalided from service overseas, and then he signed up again for the Training Battalion?

[Michelle Young]

A name would help please. 

[Will86]

Hi Michelle, thanks for replying, his name was Albert George Hardy b. 14th October, 1888 in Newington, Southwark.

[Will86]

I assume the 45th Training Battalion was the 45th Training Reserve Battalion, i.e. formerly the 9th Service or Reserve Battalion of the Somerset Light Infantry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_Light_Infantry

I thought this could have been him below, but I was confused by the pension record which seemed to look like it said he died in 1926? The Albert who is my friend's grandfather died in 1957. But I am not sure it does say that, if someone could check that would be great! The family memory was that he served in Home Guard duties in Hastings.

Driver Albert George Hardy, 85569, RFA, 5th C. Reserve Brigade, enlisted 22/8/14, discharged 10/1/17 due to sickness, received 1914 Star, War & Victory Medals & Silver War Badge

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000686-01512?treeid=&personid=&pId=3229838

War & Victory Medal Roll

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_626640_11391-00246?treeid=&personid=&pId=1303149

Star Medal Roll

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41804_636897_11335-00120?treeid=&personid=&pId=2117987

Silver War Badge Roll

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2456/images/wo329_626640_1161-00169?treeid=&personid=&pId=15680

Pension Ledger (Fold3)

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/157906520:61588

 

[Moonraker]

I have a few references to the 45th TRB at Perham Down Camp, Wiltshire  in 1917, drawn from the memoirs of Jacko Thompson held at the  Imperial War Museum. IWM copyright rules inhibit me from quoting them exactly, but if asked I can provide a precis.

[Will86]

5 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

I have a few references to the 45th TRB at Perham Down Camp, Wiltshire  in 1917, drawn from the memoirs of Jacko Thompson held at the  Imperial War Museum. IWM copyright rules inhibit me from quoting them exactly, but if asked I can provide a precis.

Very interesting Moonraker, thankyou. Would it be normal for someone from London to placed in a training reserve battalion of the Somerset Light Infantry? Or didn't the person's home place have much bearing on to which regiment they were assigned to? Also would it be common for someone previously discharged from service overseas due to sickness or injury to sign up again to a regiment that served at home?  I wouldn't want to ask you to spend a huge time transcribing, but if you are sure it's the same battalion as Albert George served in, it would be interesting to know what sort of jobs they would be doing, and if they ever served on the south coast around Hastings, thanks.

Edited 24 April by Will86

[Moonraker]

I'll send you a message. From the start of the war recruits were sometimes  posted to regiments with whom they had no regional affiliation.  This increased as the war progressed,and even experienced soldiers might find themselves sent to a unit that had vacancies, especially after illness or injury. Jacko Thompson had apparently served in the Rifle Brigade in 1916. The TRBs are very difficult to research as there's little information about them, and their movements are often not given in lists of British units' locations.

I've no reason to think that the 45th was in the Hastings area - but no reason, apart from instinct, to  think than they weren't.

The TRBs would have received the usual training given to recruits, lasting perhaps 12 or 13 weeks: marches, rifle training, drill, perhaps some physical training, and routine maintenance and cleaning of their barracks. Probably they would have had few days and nights in practice trenches

(Happy to have the above fine-tuned by others.)

 

 

[RussT]

Training Reserve Battalions were for the training of infantrymen.

All the records you provide above for this 85569 Driver George Hardy is for a man in the artillery. Artillerymen were not sent to infantry TRBs.

Your opening post said he was a Private in the 45th Training Battalion (taken to be 45/TRB). Private is a rank in the Infantry (and some other Corps), not the artillery - their equivalent rank was Driver or Gunner.

So something is not right here - are you making the assumption solely based on the name?

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

1 hour ago, Will86 said:

I thought this could have been him below, but I was confused by the pension record which seemed to look like it said he died in 1926?

Just to note that the word "DEAD" on a PIC invariably means that the pension claim is closed (i.e. dead), not the man.

Russ

[Will86]

2 hours ago, Moonraker said:

I'll send you a message. From the start of the war recruits were sometimes  posted to regiments with whom they had no regional affiliation.  This increased as the war progressed,and even experienced soldiers might find themselves sent to a unit that had vacancies, especially after illness or injury. Jacko Thompson had apparently served in the Rifle Brigade in 1916. The TRBs are very difficult to research as there's little information about them, and their movements are often not given in lists of British units' locations.

I've no reason to think that the 45th was in the Hastings area - but no reason, apart from instinct, to  think than they weren't.

The TRBs would have received the usual training given to recruits, lasting perhaps 12 or 13 weeks: marches, rifle training, drill, perhaps some physical training, and routine maintenance and cleaning of their barracks. Probably they would have had few days and nights in practice trenches

(Happy to have the above fine-tuned by others.)

 

 

Moonraker, thanks so much for this, just reading through your message now. It certainly seems that life in the 45th in Wiltshire was by no means 'easy', and they were subject to all the sorts of food shortages that the rest of the population suffered. I had mistakenly thought that training battalions would have been involved in the training of other soldiers, but from what you say it seems the ultimate intention was to prepare them for active duty? Also, did you mean, that if people had been discharged from other regiments due to illness or injury (presumably receiving a silver war badge), if they then reapplied to join the army, they were more likely to be assigned to any regiment that had vacancies rather than one which might have had some geographical connection to where they actually originally lived?

Edited 24 April by Will86

[Will86]

1 hour ago, RussT said:

Training Reserve Battalions were for the training of infantrymen.

All the records you provide above for this 85569 Driver George Hardy is for a man in the artillery. Artillerymen were not sent to infantry TRBs.

Your opening post said he was a Private in the 45th Training Battalion (taken to be 45/TRB). Private is a rank in the Infantry (and some other Corps), not the artillery - their equivalent rank was Driver or Gunner.

So something is not right here - are you making the assumption solely based on the name?

Regards

Russ

Hi Russ, that Alfred (85569) was discharged due to illness on 10th January, 1917. I have a death certificate of an Alfred George Hardy's young son in May, 1917 that states he was a private in the 45th Training Battalion.  So my theory was that could Alfred have recovered from whatever illness caused his discharge, and signed up again and was assigned to the 45th by May?

Edited 24 April by Will86

[RussT]

He was discharged from the Army in January 1917 due to sickness - hence the Silver War Badge. If there was a decent chance of recovery within a few month's time (i.e. January to < May), he would not have been discharged from the army in the first place. If by some miraculous means he did suddenly recover, then he would most likely have gone back to the Artillery, even if only to have been placed in a training role, given his evident experience in the artillery.

It's a nice theory but nothing in it makes sense to me.

You might think Albert George Hardy might be a relatively uncommon name but when you consider that many millions of men joined the army throughout the war, there would likely have been many men with that name with some no doubt being recorded as simply Albert Hardy or Albert G Hardy etc. Look through all the MICs and any other Record sets for all the Albert Hardy's to see if there might be a better fit. But remember, many men did not serve overseas (so no MIC etc) and circa 60% - 70% of Service Records did not survive, so a high probability you will not find him. But it's worth trying all angles like you are doing - so good luck!

Regards

Russ 

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Will86 said:

Silver War Badge Roll

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2456/images/wo329_626640_1161-00169?treeid=&personid=&pId=15680

Pension Ledger (Fold3)

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/157906520:61588

 

For those of us without access to Ancestry or Fold 3 can I assume that there is something on the pension ledger for the artilleryman that ties in with the family details recorded on the 1917 death certificate for the son?
Address - I see there is a 3 year old Albert Henry Hardy whose death was recorded in the Greenwich District in Q2 1917 which would have been close to the time of the artillerymans discharge so perhaps the same address.
Is the artilleryman recorded as married? is the wife Lilian?
Does either document include the artillerymans age.

I take it the Newington born man is the 22 year old Market Porter recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales as the married head of the household at 111 Rockingham Street, Newington, London?

He was recorded living there with his wife of under 1 year, Lilian Hardy, aged 21 and born Lambeth. So far the union had produced no children. There is also a Reid family living with them as boarders.

Most likely marriage was that of a Albert George Hardy to a Lilian Emily Hawney in the Southwark District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1910.

The birth of an Elsie Harriet Ethel Hardy, mothers’ maiden name Hawney, was registered in the Southwark District in Q4 1911

The birth of an Albert Henry Hardy, mothers’ maiden name Hawney, was registered in the Southwark District in Q4 1913. The death of an Albert Henry Hardy, aged 3, was recorded in the Greenwich District in the April to June quarter, (Q2),1917.

The birth of a Leonard Albert Hardy, mothers’ maiden name Hawney, was registered in the Greenwich District in Q3 1919.

Looks like Albert Hardy, (born “Southwark, c1888”), Lilian Hardy, (born c1889), Elsie Hardy, (born Southwark c1911) and Leonard Hardy, (born Southwark c1919) were recorded in a household in the parish of St Paul, Deptford, Greenwich, on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. More details available on FindMyPast via subscription \ payment.

Or is that the wrong family?

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 24 April by PRC
Typo

[Will86]

12 hours ago, RussT said:

He was discharged from the Army in January 1917 due to sickness - hence the Silver War Badge. If there was a decent chance of recovery within a few month's time (i.e. January to < May), he would not have been discharged from the army in the first place. If by some miraculous means he did suddenly recover, then he would most likely have gone back to the Artillery, even if only to have been placed in a training role, given his evident experience in the artillery.

It's a nice theory but nothing in it makes sense to me.

You might think Albert George Hardy might be a relatively uncommon name but when you consider that many millions of men joined the army throughout the war, there would likely have been many men with that name with some no doubt being recorded as simply Albert Hardy or Albert G Hardy etc. Look through all the MICs and any other Record sets for all the Albert Hardy's to see if there might be a better fit. But remember, many men did not serve overseas (so no MIC etc) and circa 60% - 70% of Service Records did not survive, so a high probability you will not find him. But it's worth trying all angles like you are doing - so good luck!

Regards

Russ 

Thanks for advice Russ, much appreciated. Not sure what MIC is (military index cards?)? I didn't know how likely it was that a person discharged would then sign up again - I assumed the training reserve battalion was a 'home guard' only battalion so I thought that might make sense, but from what everyone says it seems there was every prospect of being redeployed? So perhaps it's more unlikely that he was previously in the RFA. I had picked out the RFA as the Royal Artillery base was close by in Woolwich, and in fact the family had moved to Deptford by 1917. I did look through most if not all of the Albert and A/A G Hardys and couldn't see any that mentioned the 45th training [reserve] battalion. But if I understand you correctly, if they weren't deployed overseas, they didn't get any medals so there wouldn't be much official evidence of what they had done.

Edited 25 April by Will86

[Will86]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

For those of us without access to Ancestry or Fold 3 can I assume that there is something on the pension ledger for the artilleryman that ties in with the family details recorded on the 1917 death certificate for the son?
Address - I see there is a 3 year old Albert Henry Hardy whose death was recorded in the Greenwich District in Q2 1917 which would have been close to the time of the artillerymans discharge so perhaps the same address.
Is the artilleryman recorded as married? is the wife Lilian?
Does either document include the artillerymans age.

I take it the Newington born man is the 22 year old Market Porter recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales as the married head of the household at 111 Rockingham Street, Newington, London?

He was recorded living there with his wife of under 1 year, Lilian Hardy, aged 21 and born Lambeth. So far the union had produced no children. There is also a Reid family living with them as boarders.

Most likely marriage was that of a Albert George Hardy to a Lilian Emily Hawney in the Southwark District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1910.

The birth of an Elsie Harriet Ethel Hardy, mothers’ maiden name Hawney, was registered in the Southwark District in Q4 1911

The birth of an Albert Henry Hardy, mothers’ maiden name Hawney, was registered in the Southwark District in Q4 1913. The death of an Albert Henry Hardy, aged 3, was recorded in the Greenwich District in the April to June quarter, (Q2),1917.

The birth of a Leonard Albert Hardy, mothers’ maiden name Hawney, was registered in the Greenwich District in Q3 1919.

Looks like Albert Hardy, (born “Southwark, c1888”), Lilian Hardy, (born c1889), Elsie Hardy, (born Southwark c1911) and Leonard Hardy, (born Southwark c1919) were recorded in a household in the parish of St Paul, Deptford, Greenwich, on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. More details available on FindMyPast via subscription \ payment.

Or is that the wrong family?

Cheers,
Peter

Peter, thanks yes that is the correct family. By 1917, they were living at 19, Gosterwood Street, Deptford, they were still there in 1921. In the 1918 & 1919 electoral roll, Albert was listed as an absentee military voter

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1795/images/40020_215063-00182?pId=126814492

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1795/images/40020_215096-00250?pId=440163013

I don't have access to Fold3 so I don't know if there are any address details on the RFA Albert's pension card which would confirm if he was the same man in the 45th training reserve.

Edited 25 April by Will86

[PRC]

9 minutes ago, Will86 said:

Not sure what MIC is

Medal Index Card - literally an Index Card raised at the relevant records office to assist the clerks with keeping track of correspondence and admin references to do with the issue of service medals. The Medal Rolls for Regiments and Corps often ran to several thousand pages hence the need for some sort of indexing. For other ranks they seldom contain any biographical details, (i.e addresses).

If the Clerk completing the actual Medal Roll followed the instructions on the document then it should show all units served with overseas, but not one served with in the UK. There is an anomaly - as the war went on many drafts from Training Reserve Battalions went out as general drafts. On arrival in a Theatre of War they would then be assigned wherever the need was greatest. You do therefore get MiC's that show men "serving" in a Theatre of War with a Trainining Reserve Battalion as technically that was the unit they were serving with when they stepped off the boat!

The artilleryman would have been discharged because he was permanently unfit for further military service. By that stage of the war the Army was more than ready to hang on to men where there was any possibility of finding a use for them - men on a low medical grade were put to work guarding prisoners and facilities, bringing in the harvest and carrying out unskilled work in industry, etc. So the chance of a miraculous recovery would seem very, very low.

By being permanently discharged he would have also been exempt from the system of conscription that had been in place by the spring 1916. So while it was possible for a man to volunteer in the spring of 1917, the routes to doing so were very, very narrow as they would have had to have been both exempt from conscription and found fit enough to serve. There isn't enough evidence so far to entirely rule the possibility that it is the same man but I would have to say it is looking very, very unlikely.

16 hours ago, Will86 said:

Would it be normal for someone from London to placed in a training reserve battalion of the Somerset Light Infantry?

Believe this has been covered off but the Training Reserve was created in September 1916. While the 45th Training Reserve Battalion may have originally been a Somerset Light Infantry Battalion, by the spring of 1917 it would have been taking new conscripts from across the southern part of England. According to our parent site, the Long, Long Trail, it was part of the 10th Training Reserve Brigade and was initially based at Swanage. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve/

35 minutes ago, Will86 said:

PRC, thanks yes that is the correct family. By 1917, they were living at 19, Gosterwood Street, Deptford, they were still there in 1921. In the 1918 & 1919 electoral roll, Albert was listed as an absentee military voter

You haven't said but I take it there is nothing in the records for the artilleryman that establishes a firm connection to the Newington born man that you are interested in.

Is that an actual Absent Voter List (AVL) or is he just recorded as an absent naval & military voter, (NM) in the main electoral roll?
The AVL will normally state a unit and service number for the absent voter, particularly in the 1919 version. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Cheers,
Peter

[Keith_history_buff]

Driver Albert George Hardy, 85569, RFA, 5th C. Reserve Brigade, enlisted 22/8/14, disembarked in France 6/08/1915. discharged 10/1/17 due to sickness, received 1914-15 Star, War & Victory Medals & Silver War Badge.

[Moonraker]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

... According to our parent site, the Long, Long Trail, it was part of the 10th Training Reserve Brigade and was initially based at Swanage. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve/ ...

That's a very comprehensive reply, PRC. Just to say that LLT and similar location sites don't always show the movements of TRBs, and a member of the 45th was at Sutton Veny Camp in October 17, moving to Perham Down later that month. (Both are in Wiltshire.) The context of his memoirs suggests that the entire 45th was at the these camps.

[Will86]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Medal Index Card - literally an Index Card raised at the relevant records office to assist the clerks with keeping track of correspondence and admin references to do with the issue of service medals. The Medal Rolls for Regiments and Corps often ran to several thousand pages hence the need for some sort of indexing. For other ranks they seldom contain any biographical details, (i.e addresses).

If the Clerk completing the actual Medal Roll followed the instructions on the document then it should show all units served with overseas, but not one served with in the UK. There is an anomaly - as the war went on many drafts from Training Reserve Battalions went out as general drafts. On arrival in a Theatre of War they would then be assigned wherever the need was greatest. You do therefore get MiC's that show men "serving" in a Theatre of War with a Trainining Reserve Battalion as technically that was the unit they were serving with when they stepped off the boat!

The artilleryman would have been discharged because he was permanently unfit for further military service. By that stage of the war the Army was more than ready to hang on to men where there was any possibility of finding a use for them - men on a low medical grade were put to work guarding prisoners and facilities, bringing in the harvest and carrying out unskilled work in industry, etc. So the chance of a miraculous recovery would seem very, very low.

By being permanently discharged he would have also been exempt from the system of conscription that had been in place by the spring 1916. So while it was possible for a man to volunteer in the spring of 1917, the routes to doing so were very, very narrow as they would have had to have been both exempt from conscription and found fit enough to serve. There isn't enough evidence so far to entirely rule the possibility that it is the same man but I would have to say it is looking very, very unlikely.

Believe this has been covered off but the Training Reserve was created in September 1916. While the 45th Training Reserve Battalion may have originally been a Somerset Light Infantry Battalion, by the spring of 1917 it would have been taking new conscripts from across the southern part of England. According to our parent site, the Long, Long Trail, it was part of the 10th Training Reserve Brigade and was initially based at Swanage. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve/

You haven't said but I take it there is nothing in the records for the artilleryman that establishes a firm connection to the Newington born man that you are interested in.

Is that an actual Absent Voter List (AVL) or is he just recorded as an absent naval & military voter, (NM) in the main electoral roll?
The AVL will normally state a unit and service number for the absent voter, particularly in the 1919 version. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter for your indeed very comprehensive & informative response! I think from what everyone has said, it is unlikely the RFA Albert is the same man as my friend's grandfather. I don't have any proof of a connection other than where Albert lived being close to the Royal Artillery base at Woolwich. I can definitely appreciate that, at that time in the war, having lost so many men just a few months earlier at the Somme (Albert's brother in law Charles Francis Hawney had died there), they would not be discharging people unless the person was severely injured or unwell. Unfortunately the death certificate of Albert's son in 1917 is the only source we have for any confirmation of what his role in the war was and no service number was included on the certificate as I know sometimes it can be. On the 1918 & 1919 electoral roll for Albert George Hardy in Deptford, he just has an 'a' next to his name. I wasn't aware of the separate Absent Voter Lists - I had a look on the longlongtrail site, but it seems like it may not be online for Deptford? At the time Deptford was in the Metropolitan Borough of Deptford, now I think the London Borough of Lewisham? I can't see those mentioned on the lists, but perhaps they may be at the local archives?

Edited 25 April by Will86

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Will86 said:

At the time Deptford was in the Metropolitan Borough of Deptford, now I think the London Borough of Lewisham?

At least from the main electoral registers for 1918 & 1919 you know the address , electoral ward and parliamentary constituency you are looking for - all to often that is the first big hurdle to get over. It certainly could be worthwhile trying a local archive - I see Lewisham from the LLT list is held at the London Metropolitan Archives so possibly Deptford ended up in the same place.

It's unlikely that he would have remained with the 45th Training Reserve Battalion for the rest of the war so even if he wasn't sent out as part of a replacement draft it is likely he would have been moved on. Many new units were formed in the last years of the war to absorb "home" service men, some being deemed fit enough to take on garrison duty both in the rear areas of Theatres of War and throughout the British Empire, freeing up fitter men to be sent to the front. Others were transferred to the Labour Corps.

Good luck with your search,
Peter