Graves of French “Mort pour la France” under threat

[Ancre1917]

I’ve been following the chat that Paul started on the grave of Lt. Col. Puet in Tinqueux communal cemetery near Reims.  Over the years, there has been a great deal of controversy in France about what’s been happening to the graves of people with the designation “Mort pour la France” (MPLF) who were buried post war in family plots rather than in national military cemeteries.  By a law passed in 1920, if a family chose to have the body of their dead loved one transferred from a military grave to a family plot, the state no longer had responsibility for its upkeep and the bodies could not be moved back  About 300,000 bodies were moved in this way and are now scattered around the communal and church cemeteries throughout France.  The problem now is that local communes are running short of burial space and want to reuse graves that have been abandoned, even if the occupant has MPLF status.  Consequently, local councils are breaking up the memorials and moving the bodies to communal mass graves.  This has caused some upset, as I’m sure you can imagine.

There is an organisation called Souvenir Français that deals with preserving the memory of those who died for France – if you’ve ever attended a ceremony in France, you will have seen members of this group with regimental flags etc. This organisation has committees in every department whose members try to restore graves and keep them tidy. The Marne committee of Souvenir Français is now involved in trying to protect the grave found by Paul.

Given this, it is so fortunate that the graves of men in UK local cemeteries and family plots, who died at home during the war, have not been treated in this way, although some of them will be in bad state  by now.  Does anyone know what the CWGC does to protect soldiers’ graves where no CWGC headstone has been placed?  And, even though it didn’t always appear so at the time, what a wise decision it was in retrospect that the bodies of men who died abroad were not repatriated.  If they had been, we would be facing the same situation now perhaps.

Richard

[AOK4]

It is very much the same situation here in Belgium, unfortunately.

[Ancre1917]

That’s very sad, Jan. What steps are being taken in Belgium to preserve these graves? Do they have a similar status to those in France? 
 

As far as Puet’s grave is concerned in Tinqueux, Paul has contacted the national committee of Souvenir Français and I’ve written to the local committees in Reims and the Marne department. So far, I’ve had replies from each of the local bodies, but nothing has come back from the national organisation. Apparently they’ve contacted the local mayor, who seems to be taking his time getting back to them. There are about 10 MPLF graves in the town’s communal cemeteries that are under threat. 
 

It’s right that each country should have its own tradition for dealing with abandoned graves, but it’s very sad that those of men and women who died for “la patrie” should be treated like this. 

Richard

[Stereoview Paul]

If anyone comes across such graves it will be important to retain a photographic record.

[keithmroberts]

4 hours ago, Ancre1917 said:

  Does anyone know what the CWGC does to protect soldiers’ graves where no CWGC headstone has been placed?

Indeed. If a private grave is recognised as a war grave, then it is monitored by the CWGC, more often now by volunteers for their "Eyes On, Hands On" project, and if the grave falls into disrepair, the CWGC will attempt to contact the owners, and if needs be, take over responsibility for the grave. IF, and fortunately it is rare, action is taken by relatives or cemetery owners to clear war graves, then if they know in time the CWGC will intervene and seek to prevent the destruction. if they fail, then normally they will take steps to commemorate the individual, typically by adding a stone or plaque that is headed "Known to be buriedin this cemetery".

Edited 21 April by keithmroberts
typos

[Ancre1917]

Thanks Keith. That’s very reassuring, but so different from the practice in France, it seems. There Souvenir Français is a completely voluntary organisation that tries to prevent the destruction of MPLF graves. If it fails, they try to persuade local communes to have a separate grave for them with a memorial plaque. Sometimes this doesn’t happen, unfortunately. In Puet’s case, the local SF are on the case. 
Richard

[Hedley Malloch]

8 hours ago, Ancre1917 said:

Given this, it is so fortunate that the graves of men in UK local cemeteries and family plots, who died at home during the war, have not been treated in this way, although some of them will be in bad state  by now.  Does anyone know what the CWGC does to protect soldiers’ graves where no CWGC headstone has been placed?  And, even though it didn’t always appear so at the time, what a wise decision it was in retrospect that the bodies of men who died abroad were not repatriated.  If they had been, we would be facing the same situation now perhaps.

Richard

The 'no repatriation' rule of the IWGC was indeed very wise and one which ensured that the graves of fallen servicemen would be properly looked after. The slow but sure degradation of the graves of French servicemen repatriated to their home towns is one which has been building up for years - and there is no easy solution.

What does the CWGC do to protect graves where no CWGC headstone is provided? The answer would appear to be very little. The CWGC will provide headstones and maintain graves in the case of servicemen who die in the UK whilst serving, pass away between the qualifying dates, and are buried at home. But in some cases they will only provide the headstones: this appears to be the case for servicemen who die elsewhere in the UK and whose bodies are brought back home for burial. In my local cemetery, there are 14 CWGC headstones of which 10 are in the 'headstone only' category. If the body had been buried close to their place of death, then their graves would have qualified for full care status. So don't assume that a CWGC headstone in your local cemetery means that the CWGC have accepted responsibility for maintaining the grave.

There is another class of case which causes concern in the UK and that is those servicemen who died in service abroad, but who are commemorated in family plots or on the headstones on family graves. Many of these are more than 90 years old and in a poor condition. The CWGC won't get involved, citing their policy of a single point of commemoration. If he's on the back wall at Tyne Cot, then for them that's it - job done. I tried to organise some repair work for one such soldier commemorated on a family memorial in our local cemetery and have faced a series of obstacles from the local council ranging from: get the family's permission (can't do that - they've moved away); we don't know that his family don't like it the in its current state; this is consecrated ground you need the permission of the Diocese; we can only move if there is a - wait for it - health and safety issue, etc.

Edited 21 April by Hedley Malloch

[Ancre1917]

I take this to mean that, where there’s a CWGC headstone, at least the body is still there. In French communal cemeteries, when graves are taken back by the municipality, the bodies are removed and put in common graves, I believe. That seems a very disrespectful thing to do, in my opinion, but every country has its own way of dealing with death I suppose. 
Richard

[Matlock1418]

On 21/04/2024 at 10:15, Ancre1917 said:

Over the years, there has been a great deal of controversy in France about what’s been happening to the graves of people with the designation “Mort pour la France” (MPLF) who were buried post war in family plots rather than in national military cemeteries.  By a law passed in 1920, if a family chose to have the body of their dead loved one transferred from a military grave to a family plot, the state no longer had responsibility for its upkeep and the bodies could not be moved back  About 300,000 bodies were moved in this way and are now scattered around the communal and church cemeteries throughout France.  The problem now is that local communes are running short of burial space and want to reuse graves that have been abandoned, even if the occupant has MPLF status.  Consequently, local councils are breaking up the memorials and moving the bodies to communal mass graves.  This has caused some upset, as I’m sure you can imagine.

It is an extremely regretable situation - such a shame.

On 21/04/2024 at 18:36, Hedley Malloch said:

There is another class of case which causes concern in the UK and that is those servicemen who died in service abroad, but who are commemorated in family plots or on the headstones on family graves. Many of these are more than 90 years old and in a poor condition. The CWGC won't get involved, citing their policy of a single point of commemoration. If he's on the back wall at Tyne Cot, then for them that's it - job done. I tried to organise some repair work for one such soldier commemorated on a family memorial in our local cemetery and have faced a series of obstacles from the local council ranging from: get the family's permission (can't do that - they've moved away); we don't know that his family don't like it the in its current state; this is consecrated ground you need the permission of the Diocese; we can only move if there is a - wait for it - health and safety issue, etc.

I can understand the CWGC's position, however sad it is for private memorials in the UK.

I do hope you are not knocking H&S.

Sadly H&S is often used as a 'trumps all' excuse in many situations - also incorrectly used for inertia and used in many cases where it is not the main impediment but also as well as a prompt to an action point when it is necessary.

However should there be an H&S issue then all the likely action/work done by the graveyard/cemetery authorities will be to lay any memorial down into a positon where it cannot dangerously fall - i.e. place it flat on the ground, there is unlikely to be any restoration - just like the rest of private grave memorials it will be down to any interested family - to fade away like the rest.

Let's hope CWGC don't go down either of those routes!!

M

[Ancre1917]

Indeed!

Richard