Cap Badge 1914

[Louise]

I have traced my biological great grandfather and found a photo of him in uniform. Having been adopted I would like to know about my biological family. I thought this photo would be a good place to start. Can anyone help me identify his regiment from his uniform and military cap badge? Thanks

 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. The cap badge is Royal Engineers

[CorporalPunishment]

He looks to be wearing curved shoulder titles so he's either R.E. (Territorial Force) or R.E. Signal Service.      Pete.

[mancpal]

Hello Louise,

I agree with Michelles identification of the cap badge. 
Without wishing to offend he appears to be a more mature soldier which made me wonder if he had pre-war service. This may be as a former soldier recalled at the outbreak of war as he was bound to comply with his period in reserve, he may have still been a regular at the onset or simply look older than his years (think darts player Luke Littler). 
It must be a tremendous journey to learn about your biological family, and without doubt the majority of members will offer their broad ranging knowledge to assist. 
For personal reasons you may wish not to identify your forebear but if it is feasible then the more biographical information you can share, the better the end result. 
The best of luck with your journey.

Simon

[Louise]

Thank you to everyone who has replied. The name of the man in the photo is John Allen, born 1868 so yes he would have been too old to be serving in 1914. He is listed in the 1911 Census as a musician/ trombonist so maybe by the time this photo was taken he was in a military band? I can also add that he lived in Manchester.

Edited 18 April by Louise
Adding more info

[mancpal]

Louise, 

Don’t suppose you have a service number? There are 820 men of the same name listed on the medal roll index cards using the search criteria of Christian and surname and Royal Engineers.  Do you know if he had a middle name which may help narrow down the options? 
You say he was “too old to serve” in WW1, that may depend on if he was a skilled man (prior to his musicianship)? An experienced tradesman would be beneficial to oversee a workshop or similar required to cope with maintenance on a daily basis. Though not on the front line, such a presence in a theatre of war would qualify him to receive appropriate service medals regardless of age. 
He could however be none of the above!

Simon

[Louise]

Could he not have been in a military band? Playing the trombone? I don't have have anything else on him.

[mancpal]

It’s possible. Some military bandsmen were utilised as stretcher bearers though I suspect his age would rule him out of that role. 
I’m not a uniform expert and it may be a pre-war photo though it has a WW1 look about it to me. 
Do you know whereabouts in Manchester he came from? This again may help narrow down options in that military paperwork or even postcards may surface that contain an address (thus opening other avenues of research).

Simon

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

38 minutes ago, mancpal said:

There are 820 men of the same name listed on the medal roll index cards using the search criteria of Christian and surname and Royal Engineers

I make it 'only' 63 mancpal.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1262/?name=john_allen&count=50&f-Self-Military-Regiment=royal+engineers&f-Self-Military-Regiment_x=1&name_x=1_1

But bear in mind that in view of his age, even if he served, he might not have served overseas, so he would not have an MIC.

Edited 18 April by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[mancpal]

Dai,

You are quite correct in stating he may not have served abroad and thus would have no MIC. To be in uniform at such an age leads me to think a pre-war regular (reservist) and not a TF volunteer.

Not sure where the discrepancy of 757 men came from. I got the following by just using forename , surname and RE for regiment

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, mancpal said:

It’s possible. Some military bandsmen were utilised as stretcher bearers though I suspect his age would rule him out of that role. 
I’m not a uniform expert and it may be a pre-war photo though it has a WW1 look about it to me. 
Do you know whereabouts in Manchester he came from? This again may help narrow down options in that military paperwork or even postcards may surface that contain an address (thus opening other avenues of research).

Simon

Infantry battalion regimental bandsmen were trained as stretcher bearers for their battalion’s Regimental Medical Officer (RMO) section, in order to sustain the Regimental Aid Post (RAP).  Not Royal Engineers, a corps that had just a few large bands (if including Territorial Force) representing the corps as a whole, as opposed to the infantry practice of each battalion having its own band.

Edited 18 April by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

@Louise -- John Allen enlisted into the East Lancashire Royal Engineers on the 27th January 1916. He was given the rank of Sapper and a service number of 3294. He was discharged on the 25th April 1916 'being considered unfit for service'

I have attached his attestation form and also a couple of other image. The attestation form shows that he was born in Blewbury, Berkshire, the third image shows his next of kin was his wife Stella.

(images courtesy of Find My Past)

[Allan1892]

Meant to add that his attestation form shows that he was previously with the 5th battalion, Ardwick Volunteers and was time expired.

The 5th (Ardwick) Volunteer Battalion evolved to become the 8th battalion the Manchester Regiment in 1908.

Edited 19 April by Allan1892
To add further information on Ardwick Volunteers 1908

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

John Allen enlisted into the East Lancashire Royal Engineers on the 27th January 1916. He was given the rank of Sapper and a service number of 3294. He was discharged on the 25th April 1916 'being considered unfit for service'

From WFA/Fold3: He made an unspecified disability claim after discharge [claim received 3-7-16] - his claim was Rejected, seemingly likely on/by 22-4-21

M

[Allan1892]

@Louise -- I don't know if you have seen John and Stella's marriage certificate.

(image courtesy of familysearch.org)

[Muerrisch]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Infantry battalion regimental bandsmen were trained as stretcher bearers for their battalion’s Regimental Medical Officer (RMO) section, in order to sustain the Regimental Aid Post (RAP).  Not Royal Engineers, a corps that had just a few large bands (if including Territorial Force) representing the corps as a whole, as opposed to the infantry practice of each battalion having its own band.

The New Army units did not have bandsmen or drummers, other than any unofficial misemployment. That represents a very large prportion of the army from 1915 onwards.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

The New Army units did not have bandsmen or drummers, other than any unofficial misemployment. That represents a very large prportion of the army from 1915 onwards.

Yes indeed and by that stage of the war things had moved on, with regular and territorial force (which I should have emphasised) infantry bandsmen often playing their musical instruments in depots, and contributing towards recruitment initiatives, whilst infantry units stretcher bearers (as opposed to their RAMC counterparts) were selected and assigned from suitable volunteers and conscripted men.  We have I think covered this many times before, even quite recently.  I was really trying to move the focus away from misleading - albeit undoubtedly unintentionally - comments about Royal Engineers bandsmen as frontline stretcher bearers, but without writing too much of an essay about it. 

Edited 19 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Many readers and posters might not know the facts which bear occasional repetition.

If an infantry battalion total established strength were to be kept constant, lack of band and drums would imply 22 plus 17 more rifle and bayonet men.

One can understand the logic, if regretting the outcome.

[Louise]

Thank you everyone for all this information and for the documents. I felt quite emotional seeing his actual hand written signature and his wedding certificate. I now have lots of leads for further research.

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Many readers and posters might not know the facts which bear occasional repetition.

If an infantry battalion total established strength were to be kept constant, lack of band and drums would imply 22 plus 17 more rifle and bayonet men.

One can understand the logic, if regretting the outcome.

I don’t know whether the numbers were made up with extra rifle-men, or the loss borne as a reduced establishment?  Directly appointed and carefully trained stretcher bearers would have been ideal.

[Muerrisch]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t know whether the numbers were made up with extra rifle-men, or the loss borne as a reduced establishment?  Directly appointed and carefully trained stretcher bearers would have been ideal.

Will check New Army estabs and get back to you.

[Muerrisch]

1914 Expeditionary Force = Regulars:

905 R & F , of which 828 in the rifle companies; plus 95 1st reinforce

 

1915 New Armies

938 R & F, of which 844 in the rifle companies and 16 SBs in HQ; plus 92 1st reinforce.

No drums, no band.

 

Hope that helps.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

1914 Expeditionary Force = Regulars:

905 R & F , of which 828 in the rifle companies; plus 95 1st reinforce

 

1915 New Armies

938 R & F, of which 844 in the rifle companies and 16 SBs in HQ; plus 92 1st reinforce.

No drums, no band.

 

Hope that helps.

Thank you for taking the trouble to find that information out, it is appreciated.  It seems to imply an increase in the formal establishment to specifically introduce dedicated infantry stretcher bearers under the RMO and his sergeant.

Edited 23 April by FROGSMILE