Pte. 2415 Morris, Charles 2nd Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

[asanewt]

Thanks for looking. Talking to a relative of this casualty today. Apparently was sixteen years young. Recorded on CWG as 'died' 25/09/1915, first day at Loos, and commemorated on the memorial panels.

From Long Long Trail the Bn. suffered 70% casualties in, Gun trench, Hulluch area offensive.

Can anyone say if this soldiers records survived and/or whether war diary or other reports are available please?

[Keith_history_buff]

His service record was destroyed in the Arnside Street fire of 1940.

[asanewt]

Thanks. Afraid that would be the case.

[chaz]

only extras 

on 8/1/1915 he was 37, Roman Catholic,  and returned back to duty on 19th. for  Motor Ambulance Convoy he has a medical card. treatment for Gastritis.

listed as wounded 30 May 1915 

a pension card record listing a dependant unmarried wife,

only other offering would be given the regiment and battalion , check the war diary , although he will probably be unnamed you will know what happened and how many others were killed or injured.

 

[Matlock1418]

14 hours ago, asanewt said:

Apparently was sixteen years young.

43 minutes ago, chaz said:

a pension card record listing a dependant unmarried wife,

How sure on his age??

From WFA/Fold3: Unmarried wife, Ellen HANDS, 21 Curzon St, Birmingham [pension index card] and later 45 Moorsom St, Birmingham [pension ledger page] - a couple of possibilities I suppose, born Birmingham 1893 or 1898 ??

War Diary - currently free to download fromTNA after free registration  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352440

M

[asanewt]

 

33 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

How sure on his age??

From WFA/Fold3: Unmarried wife, Ellen HANDS, 21 Curzon St, Birmingham [pension index card] and later 45 Moorsom St, Birmingham [pension ledger page] - a couple of possibilities I suppose, born Birmingham 1893 or 1898 ??

War Diary - currently free to download fromTNA after free registration  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352440

M

Many thanks for the support. Will speak to the relatives. J

P.S. What's/where's WFA please? j

Edited 16 April by asanewt

[asanewt]

1 hour ago, chaz said:

only extras 

on 8/1/1915 he was 37, Roman Catholic,  and returned back to duty on 19th. for  Motor Ambulance Convoy he has a medical card. treatment for Gastritis.

listed as wounded 30 May 1915 

a pension card record listing a dependant unmarried wife,

only other offering would be given the regiment and battalion , check the war diary , although he will probably be unnamed you will know what happened and how many others were killed or injured.

 

Many thanks. Intriguing, will need to narrow him down via relatives. 

[Keith_history_buff]

The primary source of his wounding is from the MH 106 series of records, on Fold3 and FindMyPast. 

• MH 106 - War Office: First World War Representative Medical Records of Servicemen and Servicewomen
• Subseries within MH 106 - HOSPITAL ADMISSION AND DISCHARGE REGISTERS

Reference:	MH 106/1393
Description:	4th Stationary Hospital: British other ranks and German prisoners of war
Date:	1915 Jan 5-1915 Jan 22

 

It states that he has 4 months service as at the time he was admitted on 8 January 1915. His medal index card advises that he disembarked in France on 11 November 1914. His service number would suggest that he enlisted under Regular terms of service in 1914, prior to the outbreak of war. 

Service number issuance
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/09/roayl-warwickshire-regiment-regular.html

SDGW records that he was killed in action.

[Keith_history_buff]

This last comment is assuming that he enlisted as a Regular, rather than enlisted under Special Reserve terms of service. 4002 Pte Sidney Hopkins  is understood to have enlisted in October 1914.

To add to the confusion William Charles Gough was allocated service number 2415 upon transferring to the Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 14 October 1913, having previously served in the Royal Fusiliers, 11361, after serving with the Grenadier Guards, 5157.

[Keith_history_buff]

If he was an older man, with prior military experience, then it is plausible that he enlisted under supplementary terms of Special Reserve service, and was fast-tracked to the front, being that scarce commodity of a "trained man", when the BEF was experiencing unforeseen amounts of casualties.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, asanewt said:

P.S. What's/where's WFA please?

WFA = Western Front Association  https://www.westernfrontassociation.com

In my opinion very well worth a pretty modest subscription given all the resources, publications, other material and events provided https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/membership

M

[asanewt]

Very interesting and irritating that RWR renumbered from one again just before WW1

[Matlock1418]

16 hours ago, asanewt said:

Apparently was sixteen years young.

Would be worth checking his genealogy - especially useful for finding his birth would be his mother's maiden surname - then can check at GRO [General Register Office - assuming England or Wales birth] against a number of possibilities from the Birmingham area 1890-1910 [see FreeBMD]

M

Edited 16 April by Matlock1418
add

[Tawhiri]

6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

From WFA/Fold3: Unmarried wife, Ellen HANDS, 21 Curzon St, Birmingham [pension index card] and later 45 Moorsom St, Birmingham [pension ledger page] - a couple of possibilities I suppose, born Birmingham 1893 or 1898 ??

I suspect the 1893 birth is the correct one, given the two pension addresses.

HANDS, ELLEN  MAY       Mother's maiden name: WRIGHT      
GRO Reference: 1893  S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM  Volume 06D  Page 13

In the 1901 and 1911 England and Wales censuses Ellen May Hands is recorded as living with her parents and siblings in Ladywood, Birmingham, which along with the Curzon Street and Moorsom Street addresses is what I would consider to be the inner city looking at a map. The marriage of an Ellen M Hands to a William Kavanagh was registered in the last quarter of 1925 in Birmingham North.

1901 census - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSZ4-C3P

1911 census - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWC5-SPW

1925 marriage - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZR-6S2S

It would be nice to find a Charles Morris of the right age, assuming he was born around 1877/78 based on his age in the casualty list, living in the same area as Ellen and her family in the 1911 census, and there are actually two individuals, although neither seem an obvious choice. There is a married Charles Morris, living with his wife and 3-year old son, and a single Charles Morris who is in prison, both recorded as living in All Saints, Birmingham, which geographically seems to be adjacent to the Ladywood area of Birmingham.

Edited 16 April by Tawhiri

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a surviving service record for 2416 Samuel Hardy, born in 1872. He enlisted at Birmingham on 8 September 1914 under the supplementary Special Reserve terms of service. He was reenlisting, and had previously served with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. He was discharged on 5 December 1914.

[Keith_history_buff]

Is there any other genealogical information regarding his parents and siblings that can be provided, to help find more potential leads?

[asanewt]

4 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Is there any other genealogical information regarding his parents and siblings that can be provided, to help find more potential leads?

Many thanks for all inputs from pals here. Will speak to relatives soonest.

[chaz]

1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

d 1877/78 based on his age in the casualty list, living in the same area as Ellen and her family in the 1911 census, and there are actually two individuals, although neither seem an obvious choice. There is a married Charles Morris, living with his wife and 3-year old son, and a single Charles Morris who is in prison, both recorded as living in All Saints, Birmingham, which geographically seems to be adjacent to the Ladywood area of Birmingham.

not uncommon, draw up your own family tree. Mine is full of duplication on both sides.

I purchased a trio and SWB to a coal miner from South Shields, nice set? 

further checking on Ancestry and Fold3 sorts a problem that seller did not know. One , the trio belongs to one person, the SWB belongs to another..

Father was discharged sickness, son discharged as gassed. both have the same christian name, both miners, both discharged and both lived at the same address. both returned to same mine. oh, and both were in the R.F.A. Only difference, father only served at depot in England , so his only entitlement was the SWB, need to find sons SWB who went to France.

[asanewt]

On 16/04/2024 at 11:42, Keith_history_buff said:

The primary source of his wounding is from the MH 106 series of records, on Fold3 and FindMyPast. 

• MH 106 - War Office: First World War Representative Medical Records of Servicemen and Servicewomen
• Subseries within MH 106 - HOSPITAL ADMISSION AND DISCHARGE REGISTERS

Reference:	MH 106/1393
Description:	4th Stationary Hospital: British other ranks and German prisoners of war
Date:	1915 Jan 5-1915 Jan 22

 

It states that he has 4 months service as at the time he was admitted on 8 January 1915. His medal index card advises that he disembarked in France on 11 November 1914. His service number would suggest that he enlisted under Regular terms of service in 1914, prior to the outbreak of war. 

Service number issuance
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/09/roayl-warwickshire-regiment-regular.html

SDGW records that he was killed in action.

Thanks again for your support. Any indication of age/home/family etc please?

[Michelle Young]

War diaries have been free to download since lockdown. There’s a pinned announcement on the forum. 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352440

[asanewt]

28 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

War diaries have been free to download since lockdown. There’s a pinned announcement on the forum. 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352440

Downloaded. Thanks.

[Keith_history_buff]

On 16/04/2024 at 18:26, Keith_history_buff said:

Is there any other genealogical information regarding his parents and siblings that can be provided, to help find more potential leads?

On 16/04/2024 at 18:31, asanewt said:

Many thanks for all inputs from pals here. Will speak to relatives soonest.

2 hours ago, asanewt said:

Thanks again for your support. Any indication of age/home/family etc please?

I take it you have no further information about our person of interest, then, regarding his age, place of birth or residence, extended family members?

[asanewt]

2 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I take it you have no further information about our person of interest, then, regarding his age, place of birth or residence, extended family members?

No further progress. Have asked the nephew but no reply as yet.

[Keith_history_buff]

Nothing further to report, other than the register records his age upon admission (on 8 Jan 1915) to be 37 years, which has already appeared in the thread.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed forces %26 conflict&firstname=c*&firstname_variants=true&lastname=morris&eventyear=1915&eventyear_offset=2&yearofbirth=1878&yearofbirth_offset=2&soldiernumber=2415&sourcecountry=great britain&sid=999

https://www.fold3.com/search?docQuery=(fieldedKeywords:!((texts:!(Morris),type:full-name)),filters:!((type:general.title.id,values:!((label:'UK,+Military+Hospitals+Admissions+and+Discharge+Registers,+1914-1918',value:'1230')))),keywords:'2415')

[asanewt]

Hello all. A bit more information from family. Charles Morris, Born 1899, St Phillips, Birmingham, parents Jonas Strong and Ellen Williams.

Though birth date doesn't match the thirty three year old, coincidence that, both have mother Ellen 

Edited Wednesday at 07:26 by asanewt