David Ellis Posted 15 April Share Posted 15 April I am planning a Battlefield tour to Ypres later on this year and would like to identify the location (Trenches) of two units with family collections, any help or assistance would be warmly appreciated with the following: The Battle of Bellewarde 16th June 1915. The 1st Btn Royal Scots Fusiliers are formed up in trenches on the eastern side of Cambridge Road, with the 4th Royal Fusiliers on their left (Railway Wood?) and the 1st Btn Northumberland Fusiliers on their right, ready for the attack that morning. By 5pm, the RSF's were back in their original trench south west of the farm (Witte Poort Farm, Cambridge Road). The battle of Poelcapelle, 9th April 1918. On this date the 41st Division assumed command of the left sector of VIII Corps front. D Company of the 41st Machine Gun Company are sent to relieve (B Coy 19th MG Btn) in the left forward area GOUDBERG. Thank you for reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April David Re 16/06/1915. The WDs of 3 Div HQ General Staff and 9 Infantry Brigade have maps and reports. 9 IB has sketches as well as this map of Zillebeke. TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1426. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ellis Posted 16 April Author Share Posted 16 April Thank you Brian. I wasn’t aware Div HQ’s kept WD’s (why wouldn’t they?) and have only investigated Btn WD’s to date. Thank you again for the’tip’ I will follow up on this line of enquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ellis Posted 17 April Author Share Posted 17 April Thank you again Brian, I had a quick look last night and what a treasure trove of info. I am looking forward to sifting through it. are you able to signpost me to the relevant TNA WO ref No for my second search please! The Goudberg area near Poelcappelle on the 9th April 1918. The 41st Div and especially the 41st MG Btn. Thank you for any information you can provide. regards. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 17 April Share Posted 17 April Dave The WD of 41 Bn MGC is WO 95/2627/5. It is available on Ancestry under MGC - 41 Div. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ellis Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April Thank you (again) Brian…. I will investigate this WD. you appear to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of WD’s, no doubt gained over many years. Thanks again. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April Dave, I would also suggest that you explore the relevant brigade HQ war diary - in some divisions all sorts of maps and reports get put in these by default - even more so than division HQ war diaries in my experience. For 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers, in 9th Brigade [war diary WO 95/1425, then WO 95/1426] up to April 1916. After April 1916 they were in 8th Brigade [war diary WO 95/1416] William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April And another good source is by checking to see who your Unit relieved in the line, and then looking at their WDs. In this case 41 MG Co relieved 29 MG Co in April 1918. I did have a look at 29 Div HQ and MG Co papers. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ellis Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April William, thank you for your advice, I will follow this line of enquiry. Brian, again, thank you for this suggestion. I do know that D Company relieved a Company of the 29th on the night of the 8th April. The very next day, the soldier I am researching, along with 3 others suffered “severe wounds” and were evacuated to a Field Ambulance at Red Farm, west of Ypre. Unfortunate, all died of their wounds and are buried in Brandhoek new military cemetery No 3 nearby. In September I intend visiting the cemetery to pay my respects and to lay (and photograph) his Victory & Great War medals on his grave. Hence my request to help try to pinpoint , as near as possible, where were they ‘in the line’ on that day. Thank you for all your valuable assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April David TNA reference for the WD of the Assistant Director Medical Services 41 Div is WO 95/2622/1-2. It records that 139 Field Ambulance was at Red Farm on 09/04. The WD of 139 FA, (WO 95/2629/2), for 08/04 gives the co ordinates of Red Farm as G 5 d 8 4 which is on the road from Ypres to Poperinghe. Both are on Ancestry under RAMC - 41 Div. The ADMS papers have maps showing Goudberg and also this map which shows that there was a building at G 5 d 8 4 but it is not marked with a name. Dead End at Ypres is roughly where the Canal ends. Just visible in I 2 c TNA/Ancestry WO 95/2622 Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ellis Posted 19 April Author Share Posted 19 April Good morning, Brian. Thank you, a lot more to get ‘stuck into’. Can I respectfully ask for further clarification on the following 3 points please: 1). I am competent (?) on locating records in TNA, however Trench Map references are a mystery to me. I am familiar with OS Grid References, any explanation you can offer would be most welcome. 2) As Goudberg is a main focus for me, can I ask for more information on what the ADMS papers are please? 3) What is the significance of ‘Dead End’ location you mention. I hope I’m not being to forward in requesting the above, only your help has been invaluable to me. Thank you, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 19 April Share Posted 19 April (edited) David, There is an excellent page on Chris Baker's website The Long Long Trail HERE which explains trench map references. The Western Front Association has a page which does the same HERE. There are several books on the Battle of Bellewaarde June 1915 which may be of interest or may have more detail than you need: HERE and HERE. [These are Amazon links - book may be cheaper elsewhere if you shop around of course]. William Edited 19 April by WilliamRev New link added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 19 April Share Posted 19 April (edited) David These enlarged images are from the maps in the April 1918 WD of the ADMS 41 Div. TNA/Ancestry WO 95/2622. Red Farm - The Square marked G 5 has four sub squares, Top left is G 5 a, top right is G 5 b, bottom left is G 5 c and bottom right is G 5 d. The numbers represent the Eastings and Northings. By the ADMS papers I mean the April War Diary and maps in the appendix. The other maps show Goudberg. Dead End - The HQ of 41 MG Co was at Dead End and there are a few mentions in the WD. Dead End is roughly I 2 a and I 2 c EDIT: Op Order No 9 in the WD of 41 MG Co shows Dead End at I 2 c 2 6 Brian Edited 19 April by brianmorris547 additional info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 19 April Share Posted 19 April This map shows Goudberg in V 29 d. It is also from the April 1918 WD of 41 Div ADMS. TNA/Ancestry WO 95/2622 41 MG Co D Company moved to the Left Forward Area in the Goudberg Sector. As far as I can establish 123 Infantry Brigade (41 Div) moved into the Left Area and established Brigade HQ at Kronprinz Farm at map ref D 3 c 3 5. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ellis Posted 19 April Author Share Posted 19 April Good evening Brian & William. I want to acknowledge and thank you both for the comprehensive emails you have sent to me today. I am away for the weekend and won’t have time to give them the time they deserve until next week. Thank you both… Great work!! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ellis Posted Saturday at 11:45 Author Share Posted Saturday at 11:45 William, I have had a chance to read the instructions/explanation of ‘reading’ WW1 trench maps, and have found it very helpful, thank you. I have, today, resurrected my lapsed membership of the WFA as a result, as I want the facility to drill down to the finer detail. I am also, actively, hunting down a copy of M McLarens book having already read Carole Taylor’s. Brian, in conjunction with the above, May I respectfully ask if you can supply me with the sheet number of the map you sent me that covers the Goudberg / Paschendale area. I have since discovered an account that shows that on the 10th October 1917, the 199th Company of the MGC, of the 49th Div, were “……moving small arms ammunition” in the area of Friesland Copse. Which I have since found on the WFA Trench mapper (see above). At 4:30 that same afternoon, German shelling wreaked havoc and as a result, that night the company were withdrawn/relieved by the New Zealand MGC prior to their upcoming battle (Paschendale) on the 12th October. it has been sobering to discover that ‘my man’ was at Paschendale with the 49th MGC, then sent to Italy, only to be in the same area (Goudberg) the following spring, with the 41st MGC, where he was killed. Again, I wish to thank you both for your assistance, it has been invaluable. Kind regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted Saturday at 18:30 Share Posted Saturday at 18:30 David On the maps in the National Library of Scotland System, Goudberg is on Sheet 20 SE and Passchendaele is on Sheet 28 NE. The map in the WD of 41 Div ADMS (see above), which shows both locations on the same sheet (not on the NLS system), is headed Westroosebeke Sheet 20 SE 3. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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