Pte John Sandham 48814

[SteveR]

I am trying to find out some general information about Pte John Sandham Liverpool Regiment, previously Border Regiment. I believe he was wounded in the early days of July 1916 possibly during the a battle of the Somme, whilst with the Border Regiment. He was transferred to the Liverpool Regiment and later discharged possibly due to injuries.

[Matlock1418]

Hi, Welcome to GWF.

Medal index card shows as: TR5 TR3/48814, 75th Training Reserve Bn - enlisted 5.9.14, discharged 13.10.16 Para 392 xvi KT, Wounds = would be worth looking for the Silver War Badge list [No war medals listed]

Pension index card shows as: 48814, Training Reserve & Border Regt., discharged 13.10.16. 34 Limethwaite Rd, Heathwaite, Windermere

Pension Ledger Page shows as: TR5/48814, Border Regt., discharged 13.10.16 - Deafness & Bullet Wound Right Thumb. Year of birth 1874

I note another MIC offering Border Regt. 13445 and then Liverpool Regt 48814.  France, 23-11-15 = 1914-15 Star, BWM & VM = would be worth looking for the Medal Roll [BWM & VM look returned]

M

Edited 15 April by Matlock1418
strike/correct

[SteveR]

Thanks Matlock.

i will try to research with the information you have provided.

[Allan1892]

In case SteveR doesn't have access to Ancestry, the Silver War Badge registers show that he enlisted on the 5th September 1914.

Apologies Mr M, just re-read your post and saw that you gave his enlistment date.

 

Edited 14 April by Allan1892

[PRC]

Hi @SteveR and a belated welcome to the forum

His Medal Index Card shows him first landing in France on the 23rd November 1915, serving with the Border Regiment.

Could be a co-incidence but the 11th Battalion landed at Boulogne on that day. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/border-regiment/

If the clerk at the Kings (Liverpool Regiment) records office completing the Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal followed the instructions on the form then it should show all units served with overseas.

Should it turn out he did serve with the 11th Battalion, Border Regiment, then you may be interested in this website:- https://thelonsdalebattalion.co.uk/wiki/Record_of_the_XIth_(Service)_Battalion_(Lonsdale)_-_In_England

The Battalion suffered 490 casualties on the 1st July 1916 alone - 100 Killed, 371 wounded and 19 missing.
In fact the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows 182 fatalities for the 11th Battalion on that day, although an in depth check would be needed to ensure they all related to that days actions.

I'm not readily spotting a record for John in the Official Casualty Lists printed in The Times in 1916, but they do have quite a few errors.

Seems an odd co-incidence that the last part of his Training Reserve service number mirrors his Liverpool Regiment service number, particularly as the Silver War Badge MiC shows him being discharged from the 75th Battalion, Training Reserve, (as already noted above).

When the Training Reserve came into existance in September 1916 it took over and rebadged a number of existing infantry regiment reserve battalions. I thought perhaps the 75th Battalion might have been a former Kings, (Liverpool Regiment) Battalion, but according to our parent site, the Long, Long Trail, it used to be the 12th (Reserve) Bn, the East Lancashire Regiment and used the prefix TR/3 - not TR/5. It was however part of 17th Brigade, Training Brigade. On creation that Brigade included the 12th Battalion Border Regiment which was then broken up and its' members redistributed amongst the other Battalions of the Brigade. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve/

The Training Reserve went through a couple of major overhauls, each of which seemed to require a renaming of the individual units.

The 75th Training Reserve Battalion would become the 233rd Graduated Battalion before finally becoming in October 1917 the 52nd (Graduated) Battalion, King's (Liverpool Regiment) - hence why that Regiment was responsible for issuing Johns' service medals. I suspect the clerk may have fudged the service number as it made no difference to the details to record on the actual medals.https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-liverpool-regiment/

Hope some of that helps,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

17 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Medal index card shows as: TR5/48814, 75th Training Reserve Bn

My apologies ... Medal index card shows as: TR3/48814, 75th Training Reserve Bn [Though pension ledger page reads TR5/48814 and Border]

M

[SteveR]

Thank you both for putting some meat onto the bones. It certainly gives me something to look into.

Steve

[RussT]

There is no question he was with the 11/Bn Border Regiment when he went to France as part of 32nd Division on 23rd November 1915. Indeed, he earned his 1914/1915 Star Medal as 13445 Border Regiment. His VM & BWM will similarly also be named to 13445 Border Regiment (as per his VM/BWM Medal Roll).

It's not certain to me that he was actually transferred to the Liverpool Regiment. Even if he was, it's not clear to me what his Liverpool Regiment number was. He is on the KLR Medal Rolls and his VM/BWM roll states his number was TR/3/48814 - so it appears his MIC has been made out incorrectly - but that is of no real consequence since, as mentioned, all his Medals are named to the Border Regiment.

His number of TR/3/48814 is also stated on his Silver War Badge Roll - naming his unit as the 75th TRB.

Even if he was transferred to the KLR and he actually had a KLR number, there was no actual need to provide this KLR number on any of the above documentation as it would have been an intermediate number whereas the only units/numbers needed would be those he had on first landing overseas (13445/Border), for the naming of his medals, and his final ones (TR/3/44814 & 75/TRB) for administrative purposes.

The man with the actual KLR number of 44814 was William McIver.

The mystery is why he appears on the KLR Medal Roll at all. If a man ended his service with a TRB, did those units compile their own Medal Rolls? If not, these men would need to be adopted by some unit for medal entitlement compilation purposes. In his case it seems to have been the KLR - although I don't know how it was decided which Regiment was the adopter because, as mentioned, there does not appear to be a link between the 75/TRB and the KLR. EDIT: I now see Peter had solved this latter bit as 75/TRB later became part of the KLR.

Regards

Russ

[SteveR]

20 hours ago, RussT said:

There is no question he was with the 11/Bn Border Regiment when he went to France as part of 32nd Division on 23rd November 1915. Indeed, he earned his 1914/1915 Star Medal as 13445 Border Regiment. His VM & BWM will similarly also be named to 13445 Border Regiment (as per his VM/BWM Medal Roll).

It's not certain to me that he was actually transferred to the Liverpool Regiment. Even if he was, it's not clear to me what his Liverpool Regiment number was. He is on the KLR Medal Rolls and his VM/BWM roll states his number was TR/3/48814 - so it appears his MIC has been made out incorrectly - but that is of no real consequence since, as mentioned, all his Medals are named to the Border Regiment.

His number of TR/3/48814 is also stated on his Silver War Badge Roll - naming his unit as the 75th TRB.

Even if he was transferred to the KLR and he actually had a KLR number, there was no actual need to provide this KLR number on any of the above documentation as it would have been an intermediate number whereas the only units/numbers needed would be those he had on first landing overseas (13445/Border), for the naming of his medals, and his final ones (TR/3/44814 & 75/TRB) for administrative purposes.

The man with the actual KLR number of 44814 was William McIver.

The mystery is why he appears on the KLR Medal Roll at all. If a man ended his service with a TRB, did those units compile their own Medal Rolls? If not, these men would need to be adopted by some unit for medal entitlement compilation purposes. In his case it seems to have been the KLR - although I don't know how it was decided which Regiment was the adopter because, as mentioned, there does not appear to be a link between the 75/TRB and the KLR. EDIT: I now see Peter had solved this latter bit as 75/TRB later became part of the KLR.

Regards

Russ

 

Thanks Russ, that’s great