7th Army, RE (Motor Cyclist Section) - Leonard Huggett. Who are his pals?.....

[bhuggs]

Wondering if anybody can help piece together a puzzle with a photograph. In the middle of the riders Leonard Huggett - reg# 192366. I have his service record, which states that when called to the colours, he was to report to the Fenny Stratford Signal Depot. This was in 1916. I therefore assume that this photo is from Fenny Stratford. There is also the bigger group photo containing these five plus what I assume is their platoon or something.

There is a family theory that at least some of the other desptach riders with him are in fact his brothers, but I don't have photos of them for comparison. Service record searches for his brothers are also absent, or potentially contradictory to this theory. (I'm a fairly experienced genealogy hobbyist but haven't dived too deep into Military history before). So it may be wrong.

Regardless, I'd love to know if there might be any way to identify names for other soliders in Leonard's regiment? 

Hoping this will tell me if there's more Huggetts

Cheers

[kenf48]

@bhuggs

Welcome to the GWF

If new to researching soldiers of the Great War we always recommend you study the Long Long Trail website on how to research a soldier. Link top left.  You are fortunate in that, although badly burnt, Hugget's record has survived along with the brilliant photos.

I suggest the first port of call would be the Medal Rolls on Ancestry and a spreadsheet.

As far as I can make out you are asking two questions:-

The first is are the brothers of 192366 Huggett in either photograph?  

This is the easy one and the answer to that is very unlikely. I make it around 30-35 soldiers (allowing for instructors) in the Group or Course photograph.  Although the badges are indistinct it appears some are in the Royal Artillery as well as the Royal Engineers (round badge as on the 5 man photo).  I think the 'lemon squeezer hats are Anzacs but I don't do uniforms @FROGSMILE can you help please?  

I have browsed the RE Rolls (fortunately numerical rather than alphabetical)  from 192200-300 which is a bit overkill but there are no other men named Hugget in this series. As you have already found contradictory, or no service records for the brothers the answer would seem to be  a definite no, but never say never until they have been ruled out.

 The first thing I suggest you do therefore is to identify his brothers definitively and see if you can establish where they served 

The second question is can we identify the other soldiers in the photograph?

It may be possible but I doubt it will ever be definitive, and of course we don't know who was who apart from your relative.  We know Huggett was advised to report in July 1916. Other records tell us, for example:-

192363 Davidson mobilised 21 July 1916

192365 mobilised 10 August 1916

192359 Baker mobilised 29 July 1916

192347 McGlashen was mobilised to Fenny Stratford 12 August 1916 but does not appear to have trained as a motor cyclist I don't know how the Signals Section organised their training - are all the men in the photo motorcyclists or are some telegraphists etc? 

Whether or not these men were on the same course we don't know. I leave it to you and your spreadsheet for now.

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, bhuggs said:

There is a family theory that at least some of the other desptach riders with him are in fact his brothers,

Welcome to GWF.

Rather following on from the above post TNA may offer a hand with medal records = This is a TNA search for HUGGETT/Royal Enginers/Medal Card:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ps=60&_p=1900&_srt=5&_q=HUGGETT+"Royal+Engineers"+"medal+card"

Also might be useful to look at Western Front Association / Fold3 pension records - I found several pension records for HUGGETT/Royal Engineers [a number of which have an addresss]

https://www.fold3.com/publication/1019/uk-wwi-pension-ledgers-and-index-cards-1914-1923 [membership required https://www.fold3.com/search?docQuery=(filters:!((type:general.title.id,values:!((label:'UK,+WWI,+Pension+Ledgers+and+Index+Cards,+1914-1923',value:'1019')))),keywords:'huggett,engineers')]

Names, dob and other genealogical info on the brothers may further help - not least their home addresses

Wishing you good fortune.

M

[PRC]

Hi @bhuggs and welcome to the forum

Won't add much at this stage, but the two officers are wearing medal ribbons, most likely the Military Cross. (The cynic is me thinks that one of the officers is even trying to draw attention to it by pulling at his jacket!)

The senior NCO to their right , (possibly a Company Sergeant Major), also is wearing a medal ribbon - potentially gallantry or he may be a pre-war soldier,  and it's a campaign \ long-service award. Unfortunately the various types of black and white photography can do odd things to colours, so it could be a Distinguished Conduct Medal but then the left and right stripes should be the same colour \ tone.

One question for you - to the best of my knowledge there was no British 7th Army, and our parent site seems to agree. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/other-aspects-of-order-of-battle/the-british-armies-of-1914-1918/

May be worth checking that the right unit is being quoted for him.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

On 14/04/2024 at 09:50, kenf48 said:

@bhuggs

Welcome to the GWF

If new to researching soldiers of the Great War we always recommend you study the Long Long Trail website on how to research a soldier. Link top left.  You are fortunate in that, although badly burnt, Hugget's record has survived along with the brilliant photos.

I suggest the first port of call would be the Medal Rolls on Ancestry and a spreadsheet.

As far as I can make out you are asking two questions:-

The first is are the brothers of 192366 Huggett in either photograph?  

This is the easy one and the answer to that is very unlikely. I make it around 30-35 soldiers (allowing for instructors) in the Group or Course photograph.  Although the badges are indistinct it appears some are in the Royal Artillery as well as the Royal Engineers (round badge as on the 5 man photo).  I think the 'lemon squeezer hats are Anzacs but I don't do uniforms @FROGSMILE can you help please?  

I have browsed the RE Rolls (fortunately numerical rather than alphabetical)  from 192200-300 which is a bit overkill but there are no other men named Hugget in this series. As you have already found contradictory, or no service records for the brothers the answer would seem to be  a definite no, but never say never until they have been ruled out.

 The first thing I suggest you do therefore is to identify his brothers definitively and see if you can establish where they served 

The second question is can we identify the other soldiers in the photograph?

It may be possible but I doubt it will ever be definitive, and of course we don't know who was who apart from your relative.  We know Huggett was advised to report in July 1916. Other records tell us, for example:-

192363 Davidson mobilised 21 July 1916

192365 mobilised 10 August 1916

192359 Baker mobilised 29 July 1916

192347 McGlashen was mobilised to Fenny Stratford 12 August 1916 but does not appear to have trained as a motor cyclist I don't know how the Signals Section organised their training - are all the men in the photo motorcyclists or are some telegraphists etc? 

Whether or not these men were on the same course we don't know. I leave it to you and your spreadsheet for now.

Sorry for delay Ken, am roving around pas-de-Calais at moment.  The lemon squeezer definitely shows a New Zealander signaller, so your ANZAC identification is I think spot on. They look like students under instruction (serving a number of corps), so an Army level school seems likely.

Edited 15 April by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Sorry for delay Ken, am roving around pas-de-Calais at moment.  The lemon squeezer shows a New Zealander signaller.

 Thanks enjoy your break

regards

[bhuggs]

Thanks all for your insight! I'll certainly investigate those links @Matlock1418.

Interestingly @kenf48 's observation about Royal Artillery may be coherent - one of Leonard's brothers did actually serve in the RA. My connection is actually to Leonard's brother Percy Stanley who was my great-grandad (fairly sure he was Royal Flying Corp though).

I can give you some more details on the Huggett brothers, from what I know:

1. William Henry Huggett
   • b1879, Shoreditch.
   • Married to Elizabeth Milner.
   • Res. 1911: 68 Buckland Street, Hoxton
   • Enlisted 17 Jan 1917, London, to Royal Veterinary Corp. Reg# 30276.
   • Service record survives: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/12623981?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a227556514d43746c6e443445582f6a77454175416568377775326f415653706f5855324e44325778704852383d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d
2. Albert Alfred Huggett - 
   • b1881, Shoreditch.
   • Married Catherine Maud.
   • Res. 1914: 93 Church Road, Islington
   • Unknown military service
3. Ernest George Huggett -
   • b1883, Shoreditch.
   • Married Ethel Maud.
   • Res 1911: 18 Foulden Road, Stoke Newington
   • Unknown military service
4. Sidney Horace Huggett -
   • b1885, Shoreditch.
   • Married Ellen Florence.
   • Res. 1911: 18 Martaban Road, Stamford Hill, Stoke Newington
   • Unknown military service
5. Victor Charles Huggett -
   • b1889, Hackney
   • Married Lillian Rose
   • Res 1911: 18 Foulden Road, Stoke Newington
   • Enlisted 24 Jun 1916, depot Woolwich, Royal Field Artillery. Died of wounds 1917 near Flanders. Reg# 166285
   • Service record survives https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/12648214?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a224b2f70556843544469326472776f48416b4a4e35467a34797a6b7a785032754e4f6167597a6f7855716f633d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d
6. Percy Stanley Huggett - 
   • b1891, Hoxton
   • Married Edith Maud
   • Res 1911: 18 Foulden Road, Stoke Newington
   • Enlisted 26 Mar 1917. Royal Air Corp, 3rd training depot.
   • Service record survives: Page 79 UK, Royal Air Force Airmens Service Records, 1918-1940 - Fold3
7. Leonard John Huggett
   • b1897, Hoxton
   • Married Violet Frances
   • Res 1911 18 Foulden Road, Stoke Newington
   • Enlisted 5th Jul 1916, RE Motor Cyclist Section.
   • Service record survives: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/12648479?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a227452704d634d696f53633852725853776553737976654a675834655354674a353779335338512f715058553d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d

I realise Ancestry is a paid source so sorry if you can't access it.

[Matlock1418]

On 15/04/2024 at 09:04, bhuggs said:

Victor Charles Huggett -

• b1889, Hackney
• Married Lillian Rose
• Res 1911: 18 Foulden Road, Stoke Newington
• Enlisted 24 Jun 1916, depot Woolwich, Royal Field Artillery. Died of wounds 1917 near Flanders. Reg# 166285
• Service record survives https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/12648214?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a224b2f70556843544469326472776f48416b4a4e35467a34797a6b7a785032754e4f6167597a6f7855716f633d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d

Of course, there was a sad aftermath - his widow made an initial claim for a war pension for herself and for a pension allowance(s) for her children under the prevailing Royal Warrant [which in this case would initially have been the 1918 RW] - Article 11 [widow] and Article 12 [child(ren)].

Dependant's pension card - as Royal Garrison Artillery ... It is quite 'busy' 

Image thanks to Western Front Association / Fold3

Much is probably self-explanatory but a few interpretations for you and to help avoid potential mis-interpretations:

This pension index card was in the soldier’s name and there was another briefer card in the widow’s name so they could be cross-referenced/accessed.  These came from/lead to a ledger page(s) via the claim case references and then to an awards file. Unfortunately, the initial ledger is lost [probably destroyed as seems the case for Region 11] and we can see the awards file was deliberately destroyed once its use was passed shortly after the death of his widow 25-12-82. [This detail also on another APW PIC in the widow's name]

The original Case No. 2918 claim reference was later replaced by a later Ministry of Pensions one of 11/APW/18377 - the 11 representing pension region11 [SE England incl. London Region] for an AP/APW, Alternative Pension Widow's claim under Article 13 [his widow would have had to produce some sort of evidence that her husband’s proven earnings from employment and/or business before his service were sufficiently high to entitle her to a higher pension - providing that that calculation came out higher than the minimum/standard pension for herself and child(ren) combined].  APW details typically recorded in more detail on a separate pension ledger page, which I have not found, though the other APW PIC shows an address of 97 Ackham Rd, Stamford Hill N 16.

Form 104-88 received  = Death notification of a married man sent from the man’s Record Office to the War Office.

Date of notification of death: It is rather unclear as to whom this notification was being made but one might think it is likely to his widow

Form 104-76 received = Declaration made by the Widow of a Soldier in support of claim to pension for herself and children

Date of birth: 24.2.92 = his widow’s - required because her pension could be age-related/supplemented if she was >45 [which she obviously was not]. Such an age banding of pension is believed to address the less likely possibility of re-marriage with increasing age.

The standard pension initially paid to his widow was 25/5 per week from 6.5.18 [there usually was an approx. six-month gap between death and paying of a pension [to allow six months for any presumption of death and for calculation] - in the meantime standard Separation Allowances continued to be paid – so, unlike what many observers think when they first see such a card, there was not a complete absence of monies in the intervening period]. 

1918 RW: 13/9 pw for a widow <45y of a pension Class V soldier/Gunner plus increments of 6/8 [80d] and 5/- [60d] for the two children = 25/5 pw.  The rounded figures in pence for the children make you wonder if those figures really were the cost of raising a child(ren) or if they just made things simpler for the pension clerks [I suspect the latter]

The child(ren)'s allowance(s) were paid to their mother, typically until they reached 16 when such payments ceased [occasionally up to 21 if they were in some form of further vocational training or sometimes if they had impairment/disability] - then the child(ren) would certainly be expected to go out to work to earn their keep. Or paid until the earlier death of a child. Hence their recorded dates.

As mentioned she applied for, and received, a 40/- pw AP/APW in lieu under Article 13 of the 1918 RW [clearly back-dated to the start of the pension].  I believe this would represent 2/3rd of the AP (Disability) her late husband could have claimed if he has survived and was 100% disabled [he could have potentially claimed his proven pre-war/pre-service employment income under such circumstances, up to a maximum of 75/- pw]

She also got £5 Grant - as was usual, this was quite quickly awarded - a grant to cover urgent expenses arising from her husband's death - often for mourning dress [though not worn much at that time of the war], sometimes for moving home [typically downsizing as she would no longer be expected to keep a home in the same level of comfort as her husband might have expected had he returned!] - commonly used for local newspaper death notice inserts [these quite often had a photo = so a good place to search, e.g at British Newspaper Archive or through Find my Past]

N/S is currently thought to potentially mean 'Non-Standard’ or 'Not Simple' or similar i.e. special treatment/calculation.

S.A. means Separation Allowance - A portion of a soldier's pay which was matched by the government and sent to his dependants to make sure they were not left destitute while he was on active service.  SA were often slightly more generous than pensions and children’s allowances because a wife had to maintain a home in the same level of comfort as before ready for her husband’s return whilst a widow did not have such a need and costs – after all, apparently, she could then cut back and down-size her home!  Typically, the No. for whom SA is paid on the card reflected the number of children – as we can see here

50F is Form 50F used to cease the Separation Allowance and start the pension.

I think the WES.2975 was probably a certificate identity number to allow for the collection of the pension and allowances from a Post Office - but I am slightly cautious about that.

The printer's marks at the bottom show the printing dates [8/16 & 6/17] and large numbers [batches of 25,000] of these index cards sadly required to be used to help manually administer pensions using ledgers and files [by a small army of pension clerks, most of them female - No computers in those days!].

I hope of interest/value to you.

His widow would later typically get the balance of her late husband’s pay/’Effects’ and a War Gratuity [based on the length of his War Service] – possibly through a soldier’s Will or as NoK - But surely those, like her relatively small pension [below his former income] wouldn’t have really made up for the loss of a husband and father – See the Army’s Register of Soldiers’ Effects [A financial ledger - From the National Army Museum now typically available via Ancestry].

M

Edited 16 April by Matlock1418
add interpretation

[bhuggs]

On 15/04/2024 at 10:01, Matlock1418 said:

Of course, there was a sad aftermath - his widow made an initial claim for a war pension for herself and for a pension allowance(s) for her children under the prevailing Royal Warrant [which in this case would initially have been the 1918 RW] - Article 11 [widow] and Article 12 [child(ren)].

Dependant's pension card - as Royal Garrison Artillery ... It is quite 'busy' 

Image thanks to Western Front Association / Fold3

Much is probably self-explanatory but a few interpretations for you and to help avoid potential mis-interpretations:

This pension index card was in the soldier’s name and there was another briefer card in the widow’s name so they could be cross-referenced/accessed.  These came from/lead to a ledger page(s) via the claim case references and then to an awards file. Unfortunately, the initial ledger is lost [probably destroyed as seems the case for Region 11] and we can see the awards file was deliberately destroyed once its use was passed shortly after the death of his widow 25-12-82. [This detail also on another APW PIC in the widow's name]

The original Case No. 2918 claim reference was later replaced by a later Ministry of Pensions one of 11/APW/18377 - the 11 representing pension region11 [SE England incl. London Region] for an AP/APW, Alternative Pension Widow's claim under Article 13 [his widow would have had to produce some sort of evidence that her husband’s proven earnings from employment and/or business before his service were sufficiently high to entitle her to a higher pension - providing that that calculation came out higher than the minimum/standard pension for herself and child(ren) combined].  APW details typically recorded in more detail on a separate pension ledger page, which I have not found, though the other APW PIC shows an address of 97 Ackham Rd, Stamford Hill N 16.

Form 104-88 received  = Death notification of a married man sent from the man’s Record Office to the War Office.

Date of notification of death: It is rather unclear as to whom this notification was being made but one might think it is likely to his widow

Form 104-76 received = Declaration made by the Widow of a Soldier in support of claim to pension for herself and children

Date of birth: 24.2.92 = his widow’s - required because her pension could be age-related/supplemented if she was >45 [which she obviously was not]. Such an age banding of pension is believed to address the less likely possibility of re-marriage with increasing age.

The standard pension initially paid to his widow was 25/5 per week from 6.5.18 [there usually was an approx. six-month gap between death and paying of a pension [to allow six months for any presumption of death and for calculation] - in the meantime standard Separation Allowances continued to be paid – so, unlike what many observers think when they first see such a card, there was not a complete absence of monies in the intervening period]. 

1918 RW: 13/9 pw for a widow <45y of a pension Class V soldier/Gunner plus increments of 6/8 [80d] and 5/- [60d] for the two children = 25/5 pw.  The rounded figures in pence for the children make you wonder if those figures really were the cost of raising a child(ren) or if they just made things simpler for the pension clerks [I suspect the latter]

The child(ren)'s allowance(s) were paid to their mother, typically until they reached 16 when such payments ceased [occasionally up to 21 if they were in some form of further vocational training or sometimes if they had impairment/disability] - then the child(ren) would certainly be expected to go out to work to earn their keep. Or paid until the earlier death of a child. Hence their recorded dates.

As mentioned she applied for, and received, a 40/- pw AP/APW in lieu under Article 13 of the 1918 RW [clearly back-dated to the start of the pension].  I believe this would represent 2/3rd of the AP (Disability) her late husband could have claimed if he has survived and was 100% disabled [he could have potentially claimed his proven pre-war/pre-service employment income under such circumstances, up to a maximum of 75/- pw]

She also got £5 Grant - as was usual, this was quite quickly awarded - a grant to cover urgent expenses arising from her husband's death - often for mourning dress [though not worn much at that time of the war], sometimes for moving home [typically downsizing as she would no longer be expected to keep a home in the same level of comfort as her husband might have expected had he returned!] - commonly used for local newspaper death notice inserts [these quite often had a photo = so a good place to search, e.g at British Newspaper Archive or through Find my Past]

N/S is currently thought to potentially mean 'Non-Standard’ or 'Not Simple' or similar i.e. special treatment/calculation.

S.A. means Separation Allowance - A portion of a soldier's pay which was matched by the government and sent to his dependants to make sure they were not left destitute while he was on active service.  SA were often slightly more generous than pensions and children’s allowances because a wife had to maintain a home in the same level of comfort as before ready for her husband’s return whilst a widow did not have such a need and costs – after all, apparently, she could then cut back and down-size her home!  Typically, the No. for whom SA is paid on the card reflected the number of children – as we can see here

50F is Form 50F used to cease the Separation Allowance and start the pension.

I think the WES.2975 was probably a certificate identity number to allow for the collection of the pension and allowances from a Post Office - but I am slightly cautious about that.

The printer's marks at the bottom show the printing dates [8/16 & 6/17] and large numbers [batches of 25,000] of these index cards sadly required to be used to help manually administer pensions using ledgers and files [by a small army of pension clerks, most of them female - No computers in those days!].

I hope of interest/value to you.

His widow would later typically get the balance of her late husband’s pay/’Effects’ and a War Gratuity [based on the length of his War Service] – possibly through a soldier’s Will or as NoK - But surely those, like her relatively small pension [below his former income] wouldn’t have really made up for the loss of a husband and father – See the Army’s Register of Soldiers’ Effects [A financial ledger - From the National Army Museum now typically available via Ancestry].

M

Thanks so much for your interpretations. Fascinating stuff! All lines up with addresses I have from cenuses and electoral rolls I have for these people around the time. Lilian (the widow) and her kids actually moved in with my Grandad and his parents in the immediate aftermath it seems. Funny how these events still echo in famlies today.

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, bhuggs said:

Thanks so much for your interpretations. Fascinating stuff!

  Glad you like my efforts - in my opinion they can really help bring things more to life and provide so much useful info etc. to link and/or aid research, at least that is my aim [freely given with out any strings or financial obligations I can assure you]. 

So, without wanting to excessively sound like a begging letter ... if you can afford to offer a small [or large!] contribution to GWF - see blue banner at top - it would aid GWF. 

Furthermore, should you want/can afford a good source of information, for in my opinion a very modest subscription, then the Western Front Association offers a fantastic resource with many great features beyond those fantastic pension records. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com  https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/membership

Right, that's enough of a plug or two!

Wishing you good fortune with your other research & discoveries.

M

Edited 18 April by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

If you are interested in others' experiences in RE Motor Cyclist Signallers - Despatch Riders [5th Signal Coy] then you might like to try:

"Two Wheels to War" by Martin & Nick Shelley [2017]

["Two Wheels to War" is an illustrated edition of 'Adventures of a Despatch Rider' by WHL Watson [1915] https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16868 ]

M

Edited 18 April by Matlock1418