Arthur Thomas Williams, Royal Engineers

[Matlock1418]

On 16/04/2024 at 11:07, cjwilliams048 said:

Would the Acting CQMS role likely to be abroad in France during the war or in this country prior or after war service?

On 16/04/2024 at 17:15, Terry_Reeves said:

I think he would have been in France when he became ACQMS.

As an observation/for discussion perhaps - Not knowing or having access to Terry's/all the evidence - I would suggest some caution perhaps, and remind that it could possibly have been abroad, or possibly in the UK [Well that's what I think at the moment] - It's definitely worth remembering as demobilistion took place many soldiers ended up in an Acting higher rank in the UK.

[My GF, as an infantry Pte in France, quickly ended up Acting Sgt in the UK - partly I think because of his pre-war civilian skill-set but also partly because there were fewer and fewer men left and some sort of organisation was required to be maintained in the Army throughout demob in the UK]

As said, just a general observation - Naturally I hope the situation can be more clearly demonstrated in this case.

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
typo

[Chris_Baker]

Taranto was an important point of departure and arrival for troops going to or returning from Egypt and Palestine. I just wonder if his "Shalom" written on the postcard was a nod to the fact that he was off to the Middle East? (Having said that, I am not 100% convinced it says "Shalom". Looks like "Stafford" to me!)

Edited 17 April by Chris_Baker

[cjwilliams048]

1 hour ago, Chris_Baker said:

 (Having said that, I am not 100% convinced it says "Shalom". Looks like "Stafford" to me!)

 Hi Chris

When you compare it to the Stafford on the address it doesn’t look similar. I thought it started with an 8 and I first thought it said tallion and was giving a clue to his army unit I.e. 8th battalion but I don’t think that would have got past the censor and doesn’t make sense with what we know!

Chris

[Terry_Reeves]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

As an observation/for discussion perhaps - Not knowing or having access to Terry's/all the evidence - I would suggest some caution perhaps, and remind that it could possibly have been abroad, or possibly in the UK [Well that's what think at the moment] - It's definitely worth remembering as demobilistion took place many soldiers ended up in an Acting higher rank in the UK.

[My GF, as an infantry Pte in France, quickly ended up Acting Sgt in the UK - partly I think because of his pre-war civilian skill-set but also partly because there were fewer and fewer men left and some sort of organisation was required to be maintained in the Army throughout demob in the UK]

As said, just a general observation - Naturally I hope the situation can be more clearly demonstrated in this case.

M

He is A CQMS  because he is on the medal roll as such because it was the highest rank he obtained when as when it was earned. 

Edited 17 April by Terry_Reeves

[Matlock1418]

59 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

He is A CQMS  because he is on the medal roll as such because it was the highest rank he obtained when as when it was earned. 

OK - I understand now, highest rank as occupied in theatre.

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
clarify

[cjwilliams048]

Hi Terry and Matlock

I’m sorry to query what Terry has said but my Medal document doesn’t say he was ACQMS but is ranked as a Sapper. Terry, you may have information that I don’t have unless the document that I uploaded saying he was ACQMS is proof of details on the Medal Roll. I will upload what I have concerning Arthur’s medals.

Chris

[Matlock1418]

22 minutes ago, cjwilliams048 said:

Medal document doesn’t say he was ACQMS but is ranked as a Sapper.

That's a Medal Index Card you have - there should be a corresponding Medal Roll to go with it [I can't see it as I don't subscribe to enough sources!]

I note that, off the MIC, the medals were returned [presumably undelivered] and no sign of re-issue

M

Edit: I would expect highest rank in an active theatre to go on BWM & VM medals, I don't think post-Armistice O/S counted. And I think it needed to be substantive.

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
edit

[Terry_Reeves]

16 minutes ago, cjwilliams048 said:

Hi Terry and Matlock

I’m sorry to query what Terry has said but my Medal document doesn’t say he was ACQMS but is ranked as a Sapper. Terry, you may have information that I don’t have unless the document that I uploaded saying he was ACQMS is proof of details on the Medal Roll. I will upload what I have concerning Arthur’s medals.

Chris

The actual medal roll shows his rank acting CQMS. The medal index card , which is just a quick reference as an aid to the roll, shows that his medals were returned for adjustment (adt) which indicates that the rank was incorrect on issue.

TR

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

The actual medal roll shows his rank acting CQMS. The medal index card , which is just a quick reference as an aid to the roll, shows that his medals were returned for adjustment (adt) which indicates that the rank was incorrect on issue.

I think MIC were used by the Medal Office press shop to impress the medals so that error/scenario could potentially occur/seems to have occured. 

I had jumped to undelivered so thanks for highlighting the Adt which I had overlooked.

Any sign of re-issue on the MR?

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418

[Terry_Reeves]

There are no comments after that. As far as I am aware the return for adjustment satisfied the matter.

TR

[Matlock1418]

27 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

There are no comments after that. As far as I am aware the return for adjustment satisfied the matter.

I would expect Ret'd or perhaps a CRV [Certified Receipt Voucher] note for their return to the MO ... then I might have expected an iv [issue voucher] note somewhere if they had been re-issued - though I admit medals are not my main field.

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
typo - dyslexic fingers again!

[Terry_Reeves]

Not necessarily in all cases. A large bureaucracy.

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

A large bureaucracy

It certainly was - and thence a great need for paperwork and particularly careful paperwork. 

Hey ho!  The medals, should they perhaps surface one day, will tell their own tale.

M

[cjwilliams048]

Hi Terry and Matlock

Thanks for all that tremendous information- I now know I can be certain of his rank if other areas remain hazy! Do you think the delay in being called up presumably in March 1916 and actually embarking for France in March 1918 was due to the fact he had only recently got married and had a child? Everyone else I have looked at seems to have been called up in 1916 and departed to France by mid 1917. So many questions which will probably remain unanswered like the Italy conundrum!

Chris

Edited 17 April by cjwilliams048

[Matlock1418]

CJW ... I would add that if the war medals were returned and not re-issued [I am sort of assuming you don't have them as you haven't so mentioned] then it is still possible to get them re-issued now/over a hundred years late from the current-day Medal Office https://www.gov.uk/apply-medal-or-veterans-badge/apply-for-a-medal - you just have to pursuasively make your case that they were not re-issued, that you are related and will be a good custodian [you will certainly best need copies of the MIC and MR - though the MO really should be able to access them!] and then wait a few more months for a decision and/or medals.  Just a thought.

M

Edit:

Just so you know ... I have experience of getting my own dead relatives' medals when returned & not reissued [WW1} and when entitled but not issued in the first place [WW2]

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
edit

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, cjwilliams048 said:

Do you think the delay in being called up presumably in March 1916 and actually embarking for France in March 1918 was due to the fact he had only recently got married and had a child?

No. There would have to be another reason such as his role in post on Home Service was important one way or the other.

[cjwilliams048]

Hi Terry

I had an email saying you had posted a question about what evidence there is that Arthur did go to France until March 1918, however I can’t find the post on the forum. The evidence is this: he was married on 03/08/1917, he was on a gas’s course at Tamworth on 29/11/1917 and he sent a postcard from Cherbourg on 21st March 1918 saying he had arrived in France. This was followed by the postcard from Italy which was sent on 01/04/1918. I’ll upload the postcard 

Chris

Edited 18 April by cjwilliams048

[cjwilliams048]

13 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

CJW ... I would add that if the war medals were returned and not re-issued [I am sort of assuming you don't have them as you haven't so mentioned] then it is still possible to get them re-issued now/over a hundred years late from the current-day Medal Office https://www.gov.uk/apply-medal-or-veterans-badge/apply-for-a-medal - you just have to pursuasively make your case that they were not re-issued, that you are related and will be a good custodian [you will certainly best need copies of the MIC and MR - though the MO really should be able to access them!] and then wait a few more months for a decision and/or medals.  Just a thought.

M

Edit:

Just so you know ... I have experience of getting my own dead relatives' medals when returned & not reissued [WW1} and when entitled but not issued in the first place [WW2]

Hi Matlock

Thanks for the advice. No I haven’t got the medals. There were five children, all of whom are now dead, so I have no idea if the medals were ever returned. Is it worth giving it a go, as the medal roll doesn’t give any indication that they were returned. I  see that the form asks for details of service - I know when his service ended but there is doubt over when it began. However, since his service details were burnt would they know any different?

Chris

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

13 minutes ago, cjwilliams048 said:

The evidence is this: he was married on 03/08/1917, he was on a gas’s course at Tamworth on 29/11/1917 and he sent a postcard from Cherbourg on 21st March 1918 saying he had arrived in France. This was followed by the postcard from Italy which was sent on 01/04/1918. I’ll upload the postcard

Pretty conclusive evidence of his movements there.

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, cjwilliams048 said:

No I haven’t got the medals. There were five children, all of whom are now dead, so I have no idea if the medals were ever returned. Is it worth giving it a go, as the medal roll doesn’t give any indication that they were returned. I  see that the form asks for details of service - I know when his service ended but there is doubt over when it began. However, since his service details were burnt would they know any different?

I have only seen the MIC. and not seen the Medal Roll.

Service? At the end of the day the MIC & MR are the definitive proof of service and entitlement - and potentially the evidence if the medals were issued/returned/re-issued [or whatever].

What the MIC & MR record will largely determine your case - the rest is likely decorative 'froth'.  It is possible the MR will more strongly make the MIC/MR case 2-0 or possibly somewhat turn it into a documented 1-0  or 1-1 draw [which certainly would be the more tricky and rather upset things a bit i.m.o.].  I think the MR is possibly likely just a wee bit stronger in its persuasion, as it was essentially the source of the MIC and likely to have been most definitively made out, but that's not necessarily so!

MR potentially accesible from the likes of Ancestry and if you haven't already got the MR I'm pretty sure a UK public library will be able to offer you access to Ancestry if you don't have other access.  It may be that another GWF member can instead help you out with a copy of the MR [or at least at first an abstract or an accurate transcript].  

Then perhaps post a copy of the MR here on GWF for others to see see/evaluate its content.

My start would be ... Find the MR and see with my own eyes what it actually does record.

Then ??? - that's for another day.

M

[cjwilliams048]

Matlock

I have a copy of the Medal Roll which I will upload below for your thoughts?

Chris 

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, cjwilliams048 said:

I have a copy of the Medal Roll which I will upload below for your thoughts?

Good to see the A/C QMS recorded [even if it is not on the MIC]

Looks like a record of medals returned and no record of a reissue

To me that all seems very positive.

M

Edit; On again viewing I think Spr could be his rank in theatre for his medals [so perhaps undelivered was the case??] - would think finding proof of A/C QMS in theatre, the more substantive the rank/evidence the better, would be required for confirmation for higher on medals - the MO should probably be able to sort out [though I feel they may perhaps need a hand].

But as I said before, medals are not my main field and - Other GWF members may be able to beforehand offer their more knowledgeable thoughts [perhaps @TEW ?? - my apologies if I have posted an inappropriate 'member mention' - my old grey cell may perhaps have possibly failed??]

Edited 18 April by Matlock1418
edit.

[TEW]

The Para 992 on the MR is the telling part here. Para 992 is;

Medals which, at the end of one year, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to the Secretary, The War Office.

Certainly in this case the adt part does not mean the medals were returned to have an error corrected. Nothing here to suggest any medals were corrected then re-issued.

Where medal cards do show medals returned due to errors they lack the para 992 or 1723 part.

Image from Ancestry.

The above extract shows a complicated scenario where the VM was returned for adt while the BWM was returned for amendt. Both were re-issued with new IV (issue voucher).

I doubt that medals could actually be  amended or adjusted, easier to make a new set.

The rank aspect is another matter. For some reason the medal office put Sapper on the card even though the roll compiled by RE records says ACQMS.

Without diving into this either the MO went by the details in column 4 or they had some other information that ACQMS was not correct for the medals.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

The Para 992 on the MR is the telling part here. Para 992 is;

Medals which, at the end of one year, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to the Secretary, The War Office.

Certainly in this case the adt part does not mean the medals were returned to have an error corrected. Nothing here to suggest any medals were corrected then re-issued.

Thank you for your expert comment

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

The rank aspect is another matter. For some reason the medal office put Sapper on the card even though the roll compiled by RE records says ACQMS.

Without diving into this either the MO went by the details in column 4 or they had some other information that ACQMS was not correct for the medals.

That certainly looks the more challenging point now.  My earlier thoughts were that it was his unsubstantive/unpaid and/or later UK rank. ??

M

Edited 18 April by Matlock1418
add

[cjwilliams048]

So have I got this right? The medals were unclaimed and were returned to the War Office?

Chris