Dallou Posted 12 April Share Posted 12 April Just picked this one up, anyone recognise the markings? Thank you Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April You have a late BSA FTR, these were FTRd for the world commercial market. MkIII*s were done in ‘52-‘53, No.4s ‘53-‘54, No.2 MkIV*s ‘54-‘55. The large alphanumeric bisected by a Broad Arrow, just ahead of the BSA commercial “stacked rifles” logo, is a late style of inspection marking that shows up sometime around 1950-‘52. Variations of it are found on Fazakerly & BSA rifles, both metal & woodwork, as well as bayonets from this era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 13 April Author Share Posted 13 April 14 minutes ago, DisasterDog said: You have a late BSA FTR, these were FTRd for the world commercial market. MkIII*s were done in ‘52-‘53, No.4s ‘53-‘54, No.2 MkIV*s ‘54-‘55. The large alphanumeric bisected by a Broad Arrow, just ahead of the BSA commercial “stacked rifles” logo, is a late style of inspection marking that shows up sometime around 1950-‘52. Variations of it are found on Fazakerly & BSA rifles, both metal & woodwork, as well as bayonets from this era. Thank you Disaster Dog, do you think they changed the barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April 13 minutes ago, Dallou said: Thank you Disaster Dog, do you think they changed the barrel? Yes, it’s a BSA commercial barrel that looks to be ‘53 dated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 13 April Author Share Posted 13 April 24 minutes ago, DisasterDog said: Yes, it’s a BSA commercial barrel that looks to be ‘53 dated. Thank you, it is still covered in cosmoline so don't think it was used since the FTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April 1 hour ago, Dallou said: Thank you, it is still covered in cosmoline so don't think it was used since the FTR That wouldn’t surprise me! The world was awash in surplus weapons, so it doesn’t seem there was much interest in these BSA commercial FTRs. Mine have proven to be exceptional shooters….. I took 3rd in a 500m match with my ‘53 on the very first day I got it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 13 April Author Share Posted 13 April 1 hour ago, DisasterDog said: That wouldn’t surprise me! The world was awash in surplus weapons, so it doesn’t seem there was much interest in these BSA commercial FTRs. Mine have proven to be exceptional shooters….. I took 3rd in a 500m match with my ‘53 on the very first day I got it Oh nice, I can't wait to get it to the range, so there rifles were refurbished after being taken put of military service, or were they never in service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 14 April Share Posted 14 April They were previously in service, but I can’t say why they were withdrawn or how BSA obtained them. The MkIII*s were certainly “obsolete” by this point, but the No.4 was still a front line service rifle, so I am unsure why MoD would have diverted them to BSA for commercial FTR rather than Fazakerly for military FTR. Especially considering BSA also did 1/2 and 1/3 upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 15 April Author Share Posted 15 April 4 hours ago, DisasterDog said: They were previously in service, but I can’t say why they were withdrawn or how BSA obtained them. The MkIII*s were certainly “obsolete” by this point, but the No.4 was still a front line service rifle, so I am unsure why MoD would have diverted them to BSA for commercial FTR rather than Fazakerly for military FTR. Especially considering BSA also did 1/2 and 1/3 upgrades. Very interesting, I see on other forums people are saying to avoid the BSA FTRd rifles but with no clear answer why, have you heard this before? Thank you Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 15 April Share Posted 15 April 25 minutes ago, Dallou said: Very interesting, I see on other forums people are saying to avoid the BSA FTRd rifles but with no clear answer why, have you heard this before? Thank you Darrell Never heard that, not sure why that would be true. Can you provide a link to any of those discussions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 April Share Posted 15 April 28 minutes ago, DisasterDog said: Never heard that, not sure why that would be true. Can you provide a link to any of those discussions? Same here. One of these 50s FTRs in cosmo is about as close as you will get to a new, as issued No1 rifle IMO Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 15 April Author Share Posted 15 April 2 hours ago, DisasterDog said: Never heard that, not sure why that would be true. Can you provide a link to any of those discussions? I will look again, and send you the link, just got the cosmoline out of the barrel and it looks very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 15 April Author Share Posted 15 April On 12/04/2024 at 19:25, DisasterDog said: Yes, it’s a BSA commercial barrel that looks to be ‘53 dated. Good morning, is there a difference between the military and commercial barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 April Share Posted 15 April 18 minutes ago, Dallou said: Good morning, is there a difference between the military and commercial barrel? Not that I am aware of - apart from the BSA logo stamped on the Knox form in place of the Govt inspection stamps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 21 April Share Posted 21 April (edited) On 15/04/2024 at 07:49, DisasterDog said: They were previously in service, but I can’t say why they were withdrawn or how BSA obtained them. The MkIII*s were certainly “obsolete” by this point, but the No.4 was still a front line service rifle, so I am unsure why MoD would have diverted them to BSA for commercial FTR rather than Fazakerly for military FTR. Especially considering BSA also did 1/2 and 1/3 upgrades. Very easily, they were sold in the BSA catalogue- not as military rifles. But as refurbished BSA rifles for Military service Competition. I have a couple original BSA catalogues somewhere- if I can dig them out tomorrow I will photograph the pages. AJP and Parker Hale also appear to have received large No1MkIII rifle orders at the same time to supply target competition in the 50s after renewed interest in marksmanship after WW2 BSA appears to have purchased them from MOD before FTR and sold them on. hence the commercial BSA on the Knox form. kind regards g On 16/04/2024 at 00:58, 4thGordons said: Not that I am aware of - apart from the BSA logo stamped on the Knox form in place of the Govt inspection stamps. Sometimes the barrels were advertised as “ball burnished” as well from BSA and Parker Hale. kind regards g Edited 21 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 21 April Share Posted 21 April (edited) I had this page from before on my phone- shows the refurbished p14s with ball burnished barrels- on the opposite page was the SMLEs. This is from the 1953 Parker hale Catalogue from memory. I will dig out the other page tomorrow kind regards g Edited 21 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 21 April Share Posted 21 April 4 hours ago, navydoc16 said: BSA appears to have purchased them from MOD after FTR and sold them on. hence the BSA on the Knox form. Please elaborate on this, your statement is confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 21 April Share Posted 21 April 4 hours ago, navydoc16 said: Very easily, they were sold in the BSA catalogue- not as military rifles. Examples of these BSA No.4 FTRs have come out of India and more recently Ethiopia, my suspicion being that the Ethiopian rifles were supplied by India (since other Indian No.4 FTRs have also been observed in the Ethiopian cache). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 21 April Share Posted 21 April (edited) 5 hours ago, DisasterDog said: Examples of these BSA No.4 FTRs have come out of India and more recently Ethiopia, my suspicion being that the Ethiopian rifles were supplied by India (since other Indian No.4 FTRs have also been observed in the Ethiopian cache). Both are a similar question so just in response- I think we’re saying the same thing but I wrote it as a muppet so it was hard to track BSA as a civilian company was completing refurbishments on MkIII and No.4 rifles for sale on the commercial market- they sent tens of thousands across the globe to “commonwealth countries” for target shooting and likely sought to sell to other countries as civilian sales to the country itself - as opposed to a government sanctioned military rifle type deal. Totally without evidence and off my own back I would say it’s probably not too much of a stretch considering the three major shooting rifle firms were out there refurbishing rifles left and right to “commercial standard” which is very high. Would have also accepted contracts for large sales orders from governments themselves. I will dig out a couple catalogues - I think I know where they are in the book shelf @DisasterDog you mentioned above they FTRed bayonets as well - did them mark them as well? I haven’t seen an example of a BSA refurbished bayonet - if that was what you were meaning/I may have misunderstood kind regards g Edited 21 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 21 April Share Posted 21 April 5 hours ago, DisasterDog said: Please elaborate on this, your statement is confusing. Sorry that was a mistype, I meant before FTR. kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 21 April Share Posted 21 April On 15/04/2024 at 12:31, DisasterDog said: Never heard that, not sure why that would be true. Can you provide a link to any of those discussions? https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=55877 I believe this is the thread, hope that helps kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 22 April Share Posted 22 April 5 hours ago, navydoc16 said: @DisasterDog you mentioned above they FTRed bayonets as well - did them mark them as well? I haven’t seen an example of a BSA refurbished bayonet - if that was what you were meaning/I may have misunderstood I think you misunderstood, none of what I posted above is related to bayonets. Would be neat though! 5 hours ago, navydoc16 said: Both are a similar question so just in response- I think we’re saying the same thing but I wrote it as a muppet so it was hard to track I believe you are correct in that we are talking about the same thing in different ways. BSA FTRs for commercial sales whether civilian or foreign government, rather than for MoD or inter-government sales or transfers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 22 April Share Posted 22 April 5 hours ago, navydoc16 said: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=55877 I believe this is the thread, hope that helps kind regards g My response was to this statement, of which I see nothing related in that thread. (Mr. Laidler did say to “be careful” but I believe this is directed towards people thinking these are military FTRs.) On 14/04/2024 at 20:03, Dallou said: Very interesting, I see on other forums people are saying to avoid the BSA FTRd rifles but with no clear answer why, have you heard this before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 22 April Share Posted 22 April (edited) Here are the pages, I can’t find my blessed BSA manuals but the Parker will have to do as an example of the period- 1955 dated. of note is Parker Hale advertising BSA barrels kind regards g Edited 22 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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