Lance Corporal Herbert Henry Chapman DCM

[Blaoter Harris]

Hi I am researching Lance Corporal Herbert Henry Chapman DCM who was killed 05 Nov 1914. He was born and brought up in Great Yarmouth.  His obituary shows that when he died he was in the  16 Lancers.  Ancestry shows that he enliisted in the Teritorial Army on 28 June 1912 in the 1st East Anglian BDE RFA.  His obituary stated that he served 2 years in the Teritorial Cyclists before the war.  Presumably in the Royal Norfolk Regiment - 6th (Cyclist).  Does that seem credible?  Would he have transferred from the teritorials to the 16 Lancers when war broke out or would he have to separatly enlist in the regular army?Article 1 reduced.pdf

[PRC]

Hi @Blaoter Harris and welcome to the forum

As the article says, he'd served 2 years with the Territorial Cyclists before he enlisted in the 16th Lancers.

Depending on where he was living then the 6th Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment* seems most likely, although a company of the 6th Battalion Suffolk Regiment, another Cyclist Battalion, had their drill hall in Lowestoft. Both units had only come into being following the creation of the Territorial Force on the 1st April 1908.

*Not Royal Norfolk Regiment until 1935.

So the question then is whether he was released from his Territorial Force enlistment early - they were for four years - in order to enlist in the Regular Army, or whether there was a gap. And how to fit in the period with a Territorial Force Royal Field Artillery unit.

After 1906 individual Regular Army Cavalry Regiments stopped issuing their own regimental service numbers and instead were bundled together into Corps for that purpose - the Corps of Lancers, the Corps of Hussars and the Corps of Dragoons. His Corps of Lancers service number was 3225.

I don't have subscription access to FindMyPast or Ancestry so can't see the surviving service records for men who served in that conflict. But I can see some of the records of those discharged honourably or dishonourably prior to Britain joing the Great War.

That shows me that Corps of Lancers service number 3224 was issued to a Harry Jeffrey who enlisted on the 18th January 1911. His service number would have been issued shortly after he reached the Depot at Woolwich either on the 21st or 31st January  - the clerks handwriting is unclear. He was then posted to the 12th Lancers.

And Corps of Lancers service number 3234 was issued to Albert Baker, enlisted 24th January 1911 and reached the Eastern Cavalry Depot on the 26th, where he was posted to the 12th Lancers.

That would appear to be at odds with Herbert Chapman enlisting in the Territorial Force Royal Field Artillery in 1912 - where exactly is that information coming from?

The 16th Lancers had been stationed at the Cavalry Barracks in Norwich, (they can be found there on the 1911 Census of England & Wales), although they moved to the Curragh in Ireland in I believe 1913. There was a strong Norfolk element when that Regiment went to war. A few Kings Own Royal Norfolk  Yeomanry Officers, whose Headquarters were in the same Norwich Cavalry Barracks, had jumped ship and taken a Regular Army commission with the 16th Lancers. The actions of the 16th Lancers were followed almost as closely at the 1st Battalion Norfolk Regiment in the local press in the first few months of the war.

A cut-down version of that newspaper article you have attached appeared the the edition of the Norwich Mercury dated Saturday, November 21, 1914. Unfortunately my copy of the picture is nowhere near as good as the one you have found.

Have you been able to find him on the 1911 Census of England & Wales?

Cheers,
Peter

[Blaoter Harris]

Hi Peter

the information for Herbert re the Territorial Force Royal Field Artillery in 1912 is taken from the date stamp on the attched rather rough ancestry scan of his enlistment record.  It may of course be the wrong Herbert Chapman but this would explain the reference to 2 years in the Teritorial Cyclists before the war in his obituary.

 

CheersHH Chapman Service Record.pdf

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Blaoter Harris said:

the information for Herbert re the Territorial Force Royal Field Artillery in 1912 is taken from the date stamp on the attched rather rough ancestry scan of his enlistment record.  It may of course be the wrong Herbert Chapman

Like many of the burnt record this one has suffered!

Extracting snippets from this 7 page document. '?' where information is doubtful, 'x' where letters can't be read due to damage and\or fading.

Page 1 – Generic “New Soldier’s Record” Coversheet.

Page 2. – Specific cover note showing “Herbert Henry Chapman 961”

Page 3. – Territorial Force Attestation Form for.
Number: 961(?)
Name: Herbert H***** *hap*****
Corps: (?)

(Standard) Questions asked include

What is your name : H***** Henry Chapman
In what Parish or Town were you born: Lakenham (?) near the Town of Norw**** in the County of Norfolk.
Are you a British Subject: Yes
What is your age. 17 years (?) x months
Where do you now reside: 9 Gordon Road, Norwich (?)
Are you willing to be attested for the term of 4 years for service in the Territorial Forces of the County of Norfolk to service in the 1 East Anglian Bde R.F.A: Yes.
Date of Certification of Magistrate looks unreadable although possibly year is 1912. (?)

Page 4. – Better quality version of page 3.
Number: 961
Name: Herbert H***** Chapm**
Corps: 1^st East Anglian ******

What is your name : Herbert Henry Chapman
In what Parish or Town were you born: Lakenham (?) near the Town of Norw**** in the County of Norfolk.
Are you a British Subject: Yes
What is your age. 17 years (?) 6 months (?)
Where do you now reside: 9 Gordon Road, Norwich (?)
Are you willing to be attested for the term of 4 years for service in the Territorial Forces of the County of Norfolk to service in the 1 East Anglian Bde R.F.A: Yes.
Declaration signed Herbert Henry Chapman.
Date of Certification of Magistrate looks unreadable although possibly year is 1912. (?)

Page 5. – Description of Herbert Henry Chapman on Enlistment.
Medical Inspection Report.
Name: Herbert Henry Chapman.
Apparent age 17 years 3 months.
Medical examination signed off June 28 1912 (?)
Certificate of Primary Military Examination.
I hereby certify that the above named recruit was inspected by me and I consider him fit for service in the 1^st East Anglian Bde. R.F.A. Signed by the Adjutant of that unit. Date stamped xx June (?) 1912  - location looks like it ends CH.
However the Approving Officer stamp for the Lieutenant Colonel of that unit looks like 16 April ****

Page 6. Statement of Services of 9*1 Herbert Henry C**pm***
Service towards engagement reckons from 15 4 12
Attested 15 4 /12 as a Driver
(Attended annual camp at) Okehampton 27 7/12 to 10 8/12
Total service towards engagement in the Territorial Force to 14-2-13 (date of discharge) - years 306 days.
Discharged in consequence of under paragraph  * (4) T. Force Reg**** 191*
Discharge approval date stamped 17 Feb 1913. Location ends “ICH”

Page 7 Military History Sheet.
Number 961. Name Herbert Henry Chapman.
Place: Norwich (?) From: 15^th April 1912. To: 14^th February 1913. Years: - . Days: 306.
Name and address of next of kin.
George Herbert Chapman (father)
9 Gordon Road, Norwich.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales, taken on the 2^nd April, there is a 17 year old Herbert Henry Chapman, born St Marks Parish, Norwich, who was recorded living at 9 Gordon Road, Norwich. Herbert was an Errand Boy for an Ironmongers and Cabinet Manufacturer. This was the household of his parents George Herbert Chapman and Emma Louisa Chapman.

As Norwich started to expand outwards from the old Medieval City Walls from the 1870’s, the city rapidly either threated to absorb existing hamlets out on the nearby cow pastures and marshes, (such as South and North Heigham), or infill the land to nearby villages such as Lakenham. While building back to back terraces with poor amenities the developers sought to conjure the rustic "idyll" that so many of their new building occupants had sought to flee by calling these infill areas such things as New Lakenham. And while few amenities other than public houses were provided there was always a need for a C of E church – and thus to cover New Lakenham the parish of St Mark was created.

So everything seems to add up to the Lakenham born Herbert Henry Chapman who joined the Territorial Force in 1912 being a completely different individual to the Great Yarmouth who was both older and already serving in the Regular Army.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 13 April by PRC
Formatting

[Blaoter Harris]

Many thanks for this. 

The attaced 2 articles may be of interest.  One ofArticle 4 reduced.pdfArticle 2 reduced.pdf them states that he was in the QM office for 2 years.  Any ideas as to how I might obtain his military record?

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Blaoter Harris said:

Any ideas as to how I might obtain his military record?

If you mean when he was (probably) with the Norfolk Cyclists - I wouldn't hold out too much hope as they were probably merged with his Regular Army records, but there is a small chance the Regimental Museum in Norwich may have something. More likely is that they may hold a Battalion muster roll that with a bit of luck will tell you when and why he was released, as well as the date of originallly enlisting. https://royalnorfolkregiment.co.uk/

Hopefully you are aware that for those other ranks whose service ended with the Great War, their service records were consolidated into a central warehouse in London.  Unfortunately during the Blitz this was hit by German bombs and burnt out. Attempts were made to salvage as much as possible - the papers you have found for the other Herbert Henry Chapman were in a comparatively good state. Presumably he went on to serve in the Great War but his papers for the 1912/13 TF RFA service have become orphaned from that later service record.

An attempt was made to recreate as many of the records as possible, but this involved copying extracts of records taken by the Ministry of Pensions to assist with ongoing disability pension claims, and by the Medical Service to assist with on-going treatment. Neither of those would have applied to Herbert. The extracts are also biased towards the needs of those organisatons.

A few units had their records stored elsewhere - the Guards and the Household Cavalry, - but not the Corps of Lancers.

There is a needle in a haystack chance that some of the pages of his record have survived but have inadvertently been misfiled. Unfortunately I long ago gave up on telling the likes of FindMyPast and Ancestry when I gave across such misfiled pages as there was never any feedback or sign that this was being actionned. This seems to be a common complaint with all record types on those two sites, although at least Ancestry and it's US sister site Fold 3 often has the facility to leave a comments or advise additional details the records should be indexed on.

Cheers,
Peter