Lieutenant B Spencer from Norwood London trying to identify

[wulsten]

Can anyone identify a lieutenant B Spencer, checked mic etc but cannot find anything to identify him, believed to be from Norwood London, son of William and Henrietta any help appreciated 

[Matlock1418]

5 minutes ago, wulsten said:

Can anyone identify a lieutenant B Spencer, checked mic etc

Which regiment/corps?  Which MIC?  What's your source for his name?

Anything else?

M

Edited 12 April by Matlock1418

[wulsten]

Believed to be brother to Richard Isaac barre Spencer killed 14th July 1916 1 RSF

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Which regiment/corps?  Which MIC?  What's your source for his name?

Anything else?

M

Believed to be brother to Richard Isaac barre Spencer killed 14th July 1916 1 RSF

[kenf48]

In 1911 CensusRichard Isaac is living with his parents (as shown on CWGC) and his sister Mary Borlean, both of who were born in Canada in 1889 and 1891 respectively 

Henrietta born in India William in South Africa.  No sign of a B Spencer in either the 1911 Census or the 1921 Census.

 

[wulsten]

1 minute ago, kenf48 said:

In 1911 CensusRichard Isaac is living with his parents (as shown on CWGC) and his sister Mary Borlean, both of who were born in Canada in 1889 and 1891 respectively 

Henrietta born in India William in South Africa.  No sign of a B Spencer in either the 1911 Census or the 1921 Census.

 

Thank you for the reply, makes me think there is no connection and cannot find a relevant mic etc for a lieutenant B Spencer 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

In 1911 CensusRichard Isaac is living with his parents (as shown on CWGC) and his sister Mary Borlean, both of who were born in Canada in 1889 and 1891 respectively 

Just to flesh that out a bit - father William Isaac was then 53 and mother Henrietta was aged 49 and the couple have been married 23 years - so either could potentially have had an earlier marriage.  As far as that union is concerned they state it has produced just the two children, both then still alive.

Cheers,
Peter

[Tawhiri]

I'm not saying he is necessarily the correct man, but the monthly January 1918 British Army list actually only lists one B Spencer, and this is Lieutenant B Spencer serving with the Army Ordnance Department. It appears that he was first commissioned on 11 June 1915, and a search in the Gazette around this date then produces the commissioning of a Barre Spencer as a temporary Lieutenant with the Army Ordnance Department on this date.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123150897

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29208/supplement/6245

Digging around on FamilySearch produces a Barre Spencer, the son of Frederick Beaumont and Catherine Spencer, born in Manitoba, Canada on 14 January 1887, but christened in Norwood, Surrey on 12 March 1890, which looks like your Norwood connection. In 1901 the family were resident in Lansdown Place, Croydon, and from this we find that mother Catherine was also born in Norwood. There may well be a family connection with Richard Isaac Barre Spencer, given the birth of Richard and his sibling in Canada, the Norwood connection, and the forename Barre, but cousins of some sort might be more likely on the evidence. 

Christening record - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGZR-2MWY

1901 England and Wales census - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9X2-726

It looks like he married Hilda H Coates in the last quarter of 1914 in Lewisham, and then there is a possible second marriage to Edith M Hytten in the last quarter of 1934, also in Lewisham. 

1914 marriage - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26D8-HNP

1934 marriage - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV8Z-QX3Q

The death of a Barre Spencer was registered in Kent, England in 1972. Interestingly enough, he also appears to have become a naturalized American citizen in 1914 in Schenectady, New York.

1914 US naturalization - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:78P8-2YMM

Looks like he also returned to Canada in 1923, when he was described as being widowed, which then makes the 1914 and 1934 marriages quite logical. Note also that this record states that he left Canada in October 1914 to join the British Army.

1923 Canadian immigration record - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68NY-1CD1

Edited to add that he is back in Manitoba, Canada in 1911 as he appears in the 1911 Canada census lodging with what looks like an older brother and his family.

1911 Canada census - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV95-C7ZN

It also appears that he returned to the US in both 1923 and 1930, the 1923 trip presumably being connected to his 1923 Canada trip.

Further edited to add that in the 1891 England and Wales census he was living in the household of his maternal grandparents in Penge, Surrey.

1891 England and Wales census - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QN7T-PZM

Edited 12 April by Tawhiri

[wulsten]

Wow, thank you, from this information it may seem that he was a relative to Richard Isaac barre Spencer rather than a brother, correct me if wrong 

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, wulsten said:

from this information it may seem that he was a relative to Richard Isaac barre Spencer rather than a brother, correct me if wrong

I'd certainly agree with you, possibly cousins of some sort. Do you know where Richard's father was born? According to the 1901 census, Barre's father, Frederick Beaumont, was born in Corfu, Turkey of all places.

Edited 12 April by Tawhiri

[corisande]

18 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

born in Corfu, Turkey of all places.

The British owned Corfu till 1864

In November 1815 Corfu came under British rule following the Napoleonic Wars, and in 1864 was ceded to modern Greece by the British government

[Tawhiri]

Digging a little deeper I strongly suspect that William Isaac Spencer and Frederick Beaumont Spencer were brothers. William Isaac Spencer was born on 18 August 1857 in Grahamstown, South Africa, the son of William Henry and Mary Lamont Spencer. William Henry at the time was a Lieutenant with what looks like the 2nd Battalion of the Queen's Royal Regiment. Frederick Beaumont Spencer's birth was registered in Corfu, Greece in the GRO publication GRO Ionian Islands Military Registration Births (1818-1864), which implies his father was in the military. Can we pin down which British Army regiment(s) were serving in Corfu in 1860/61?

Actually I think the 1881 England and Wales census gives us the confirmation that we need. This records a 20-year old Frederick B Spencer, born in Corfu, Greece and then serving as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal Surrey Militia living in the household of his mother, Mary L Spencer, aged 41 and born in South Africa, with his 21- and 10-year old sisters, both of who were born in England.

1881 England and Wales census - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-T9FL

The only conclusion has to be that William Isaac Spencer and Frederick Beaumont Spencer were indeed brothers, and Richard Issac Barre Spencer and Barre Spencer were first cousins.

The marriage of William Henry Spencer and Mary Lamont Lucas took place on 21 October 1856 in Grahamston, South Africa, noting that Mary was a minor, i.e. under 18, at the time, which fits with her then being 41, turning 42 in 1861.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NMR-757X

Edited to add that the following birth was registered in England, mother's maiden name Lucas, which is consistent with the name of Frederick's older sister and her stated birthplace, which is York, in the 1881 England and Wales census. Unfortunately I haven't managed to track down a birth registration for younger sister Muriel.

SPENCER, MARY  GEORGIANA GILBY      Mother's maiden name: LUCAS

GRO Reference: 1859  J Quarter in GREAT OUSEBURN  Volume 09A  Page 99

Edited 12 April by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

Finally, just to add that I have managed to find the family in the 1871 England and Wales census, no sign of brothers William Issac or Frederick Beaumont, but it does confirm their parents' details, and the names of several other siblings.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZGN-QKQ

I have also found a christening record for younger sister Muriel, which again confirms their parents' details.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CXK5-9V3Z

Edited 12 April by Tawhiri

[wulsten]

Just now, Tawhiri said:

Finally, just to add that I have managed to find the family in the 1871 England and Wales census, no sign of brothers William Issac or Frederick Beaumont, but it does confirm their parents' details, and several other siblings.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZGN-QKQ

I have also found a christening record for younger sister Muriel, which again confirms their parents' details.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CXK5-9V3Z

Tawhiri, wow, think you so much for your replies, I'm going to have to get my head around your information and put together, very very much appreciated again thank you 

[Tawhiri]

All I can say is thankfully there was only one B Spencer serving in the entire British Army during WW1. I certainly hadn't expected it to be that easy to identify your unknown Lieutenant.

[Matlock1418]

Barre SPENCER, AOC

Pension index card available at WFA/Fold3 - Claimed for Rheumatism, age 32. 1 Clifton Rd., Brighton address

MIC available - 1 Raymond Street, Schenectady, New York address [he claimed / EF9 dated 26.6.23] 

M

Edited 12 April by Matlock1418

[Tawhiri]

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

MIC available - 1 Raymond Street, Schenectady, New York

It's a little hard to read, but I think that's the same address that is on this US arrivals card from Canada for him, dated 3 September 1923.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q23C-9RLD

Edited 12 April by Tawhiri

[wulsten]

Make's me wonder if they were related to this chap,

Isaac Barré (15 October 1726 – 20 July 1802) was an Anglo-Irish soldier and politician.^[1] He earned distinction serving with the British Army during the Seven Years' War and later became a prominent Member of Parliament, where he was a vocal supporter of William Pitt. He is known for coining the term "Sons of Liberty" in reference to American colonists who opposed the British government's policies.