Jack Kaufman Holtz from Sunderland

[Andy Dewar]

I am trying to find out about my grandfather's war service, but I know absolutely nothing about it. He didn't mention it at all, but after he died one of my uncles told me he had been in Palestine at the end of the war.

My sister says there's a 'rumour' that he was in the Dardanelles.

His name - to me - was Jack Holt, but in early life - probably the time he was in the army - he was Jack Holtz and sometimes Jack Kaufman Holtz. He was born Kaufman Holtz in Sunderland on February 4 1898. I've found his birth on Find My Past and they him registered as Kofman Holtz. On the 1911 census he is Kaufman Holtz living in Sunderland, Durham. His parents are Abraham and Rachael.

I have found this one document on Find My Past which could well be him, being treated for shock. But I can't read what regiment he is in and I can't find anything using that regiment number.

Can anybody please help with the regiment or suggest a way forward?

Thanks for looking

Andy

 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum.

 

I think it says 150 MG Bn  ie Machine Gun Battalion.

It says entrained at Coulommiers which is near Paris and detrained at Vichy. The dates would fit in with the actions south of Soissons. 

[corisande]

FmP have him in 1921 census at Jews Orphanage, Knights Hill, Lambeth, London & Surrey

He appears to marry in 1922 to Cissie

and in 1939 is living with Cissie in Sussex

Name	Jack Holtz
Gender	Male
Marital Status	Married
Birth Date	1 Mar 1898
Residence Date	1939
Address	33
Residence Place	Worthing, Sussex, England
Occupation	Schoolmaster

 

He was born Sunderland (Free BMD) as Kofman Holtz on Jan/Mar 1898

and died London Sep 1985  as both Jack & Kofman

Deaths 1985   (>99%)
HOLTZ	BESSIE LUCY	9AP1901	WHITBY	2	2760
HOLTZ	JACK	1MR1898	BRENT	11	699
HOLTZ	KOFMAN	1MR1898	BRENT	11	699

 

He appears to have used "Holtz" the whole of his life

Edited 12 April by corisande

[kenf48]

113272 MGC was allocated to Frederick John Perry formerly Somerset Light Infantry (Medal Roll)

His parents are in Newcastle in 1921 with his two sisters but he is not with them.  Their place of birth is shown as Poland Russia Nationality Russian. The eldest daughter was born in Spitalfields and that fits as the highest number of immigrants in London before the war were Russian. The second sister was born in North Shields.

Kofman or Jack, born in 1898 would have come within the ambit of the Military Service Act 1916 on attaining the age of eighteen. This precludes service in the Dardanelles Campaign in 1915 (unless he enlisted under age).  

Like you I can't find him under either the name or  number shown on the MH106 record on FMP. Names were anglicised due to anti-German feeling in the Great War (probably easier than saying I'm Russian not German).

The most likely unit, although he was British, would be the 'enemy alien' battalions of the Middlesex Regiment

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-duke-of-cambridges-own-middlesex-regiment/enemy-alien-labour-units-of-the-middlesex-regiment/

but he would still be entitled to the 'war medals' on the basis of serving in France as per the medical record.  

He may have transferred and therefore renumbered after the above event.

Perhaps he is in the Pension Records on Ancestry Fold 3?

[corisande]

You may be going down a rabbit hole with that FmP wounding report

• I don't think there was a 150 Machine Gun Btn in British Army
•  
• But there was in US Army
• The 150TH Machine Gun Battalion was organized from companies and personnel from the Wisconsin National Guard’s 2D Wisconsin Infantry Regiment on 16 August 1917. The Battalion fought with the 42D Division in France throughout WWI. After the war, the companies and personnel were reorganized into the 32D ‘Red Arrow’ Division’s 127TH Infantry Regiment, which is why the 127TH Infantry’s distinctive unit insignia includes a small rainbow.
•  
• The other casualties on that sheet look like US soldiers as well
•  

[corisande]

If he did not serve as Holtz, but used Jack Holt ( I have no idea whether this is true)  and did serve abroad, then you have (providentially ) only 3 options

Holt, Jack

Tank Corps 306466 Private

 

Holt, Jack East Lancashire Regiment 40922 Private Royal Engineers WR/284764 Private Holt, Jack Loyal North Lancashire Regiment 16401 Private Machine Gun Corps 176877 Private (If my surmise on the Holtz on the casualty list being in MGC in US army is right, then this is just a coincidence of MGC in British Army)   You would need to establish if any of them could have served in Palestine or Gallipoli

[corisande]

12 hours ago, Andy Dewar said:

His name - to me - was Jack Holt, but in early life - probably the time he was in the army - he was Jack Holtz and sometimes Jack Kaufman Holtz. He was born Kaufman Holtz in Sunderland on February 4 1898. I've found his birth on Find My Past and they him registered as Kofman Holtz. On the 1911 census he is Kaufman Holtz living in Sunderland, Durham. His parents are Abraham and Rachael.

This is the bit that worries me on your research

• You say you knew him as "Holt"
• But the man born in Sunderland in Mar 1898 used "Holtz" all his life - 1921 census, 1922 marriage, 1939 Register, and 1985 death

Why do you assume that this man Holtz is your grandfather?

Could there have been a Jack Holt that you have not researched?

What do you know for sure about your grandfather

• Where did he die
• Who was he married to. What was your grandmothers Christian and Maiden name. Where did she die
• Where did he live
• what did he do - was he a teacher?
• Where was he born - what do you know for sure, not this stuff from records

Edited 12 April by corisande

[Andy Dewar]

Thank you all very much. This is already so helpful.

Sorry, I think I have given you Holt as a red herring. It was my mother who used the shortened version, my grandfather obviously never did.

Yes, that’s him teaching at the Jewish orphanage. I always thought that was in Norwood. Cissie is my grandmother, yes. He was in Worthing around WW2 because the school was evacuated there, then to Hertfordshire.

He was definitely from Sunderland, he had what I though of as a Newcastle accent, and that is him on the census. I know my family were originally from Poland/ Russia. I have heard that they were perhaps in East London for a bit. 

My grandfather died is Neasden in the 1980s. I think the record posted is him.

I hope that makes everything clearer and thanks again.

[Andy Dewar]

I found this record which is my grandfather it shows his war service was 1918-1919.

Theres a different spelling of Kofman now.

I remember an uncle remarking about my grandfather being in Palestine and an adventure with a camel.

Thanks again for looking.

Edited 12 April by Andy Dewar