Bart030 Posted 11 April Share Posted 11 April (edited) I hope this is not inappropriate here, but I've found out my great grandfather, who moved to The Netherlands pre-ww1, volunteered to join the German army to fight the Russians over his home-land (Galicia, part of the Austro-Hungarian empire back then I believe). He was planning to be back within a few weeks, it took him 4 years.. and he was a changed man. I did find some records of him being "Verwundet" on ancestry.com, where it says he was part of the 21th infantry brigade "Von Borcke" 10th company. I'm reading the book "Poles in Kaiser’s Army On the Front of the First World War" from Ryszard Kaczmarek, which gives a lot of information regarding Polish forces and the battles they were in. Can you point me to some more resources where I could look for more information about him, as well as more information where the 21th infantry brigade fought. I know he fought the Russians at the east front and there are some horrific stories about the snow/cold/hunger in Italy. I'm also having trouble reading the location he was wounded in the sep1918 screenshot. (Tannhofen Hohenfalza?) Since I can't read polish, and my German is quite bad I was hoping to find some resources in English. Many thanks. Bart Surminski Both screenshots from ancestry.com: Edited 11 April by Bart030 added ancestry credits for screenshots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 11 April Share Posted 11 April (edited) Hi, you misinterpreted what you read in more than one instance. Your ancestor was part of the Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 20 (RIR 20) and he was born on the 4th September 18?? at Tannhofen, district of Hohensalza. If you read the Verlustlisten please remember that the date is that of publication, not that of the wounding or killing. In average the event took place 4-6 weeks prior to publication. It will be very difficult to find out more about him in military sources as most were destroyed in WW2. GreyC Edited 11 April by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 11 April Share Posted 11 April 5 minutes ago, GreyC said: Hi, you misinterpreted what you read in more than one instance. Your ancestor was part of the Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 20 (RIR 20) and he was born on the 4th September 18?? at Tannhofen, district of Hohensalza. If you read the Verlustlisten please remember that the date is that of publication, not that of the wounding or killing. In average the event took place 4-6 weeks prior to publication. It will be very difficult to find out more about him in military sources as most were destroyed in WW2. GreyC You were too fast, GreyC. He belonged to the 10. Kompagnie, Infanterie-Regiment 21 in 1914. No unit is given for the second mention. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 11 April Share Posted 11 April (edited) Sorry you´re right IR 21. But not 21. Inf. Brigade as stated in #1. As the VL is dated 14th Aug to 29th Aug. It seems the regiment was then (from 2nd August 1914) under comand of 70th Brigade (35th Inf. Div.). There is a regimental history of the 21st IR. Ernst Hall, Kriegsgeschichte des Königlich Preußischen Infanterie-Regiments von Borke (4.Pommersches) Nr. 21; Aus Deutschlands großer Zeit Band 18; Bildtafel, XXIV, 664 Seiten; Verlag Sporn Zeulenroda, 1930 A digital version here: https://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/index.php?id=6&tx_dlf[id]=5766&tx_dlf[page]=1 and Hall, Fock, Dahle, Kriegsgeschichte des Königlich Preussischen Infanterie-Regiments von Borcke (4. Pommersches) Nr. 21; Nach amtlichen Unterlagen und Berichten der Mitkämpfer; Vorgeschichte, 1813-1918; Weltkrieg 1914-1918; Zeulenroda, B. Sporn 1931, 655 Seiten. (?2. Auflage?) also a newsletter after the war: Nachrichten-Blatt des Ehem. Königl. Preuß. Infanterie-Regiments von Borcke (4. Pomm.) Nr. 21, seiner Feldformationen und des Traditionstruppenteils III. Btl. I.-R. 25; Verlag Dünnhaupt 1938; Nachweis in der Deutschen Nationalbibliothek (DNB) Nachrichten-Blatt des Ehem. Königl. Preuß. Infanterie-Regiments von Borcke (4. Pomm.) Nr. 21, seiner Feldformationen und der Traditionskompanie 11. I.-R. 26; Verlag Dünnhaupt 1929-1937; Nachweis in der Deutschen Nationalbibliothek (DNB) Nachrichten-Blatt des Traditionsverbandes Ehem. Inf. Rgt. v. Borcke (4. Pomm.) Nr. 21, seiner Feldformationen und des Traditionstruppenteils III./Inf. Rgt. 25; Verlag Dünnhaupt 1939 -1941; Nachweis in der Deutschen Nationalbibliothek (DNB) This is were the 35th Inf. Division was active during the time he was wounded: 31.07.1914 - 07.08.1914: Grenzschutz gegen Rußland (Teile) 19.08.1914 - 20.08.1914: Schlacht bei Gawaiten-Gumbinnen 23.08.1914 - 31.08.1914: Schlacht bei Tannenberg 26.08.1914: Groß-Bössau-Lauteren 29.08.1914 u. 30.08.1914: Ortelsburg 05.09.1914 - 15.09.1914: Schlacht an den Masurischen Seen (Goldap-Angerburg) 04.10.1914 - 05.10.1914: Gefecht bei Opatow und Radom (Schlacht bei Opatow) GreyC Edited 11 April by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart030 Posted 11 April Author Share Posted 11 April Thanks guys, very helpful. My great grandfather was born in 22-1-1879, so at least the second "Szurminski" seems to be another person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 11 April Share Posted 11 April 21 minutes ago, Bart030 said: Thanks guys, very helpful. My great grandfather was born in 22-1-1879, so at least the second "Szurminski" seems to be another person. If he was born in 1879, he can't be the man in the first list either, as this man was a Reservist (should have been born 1886-1894 or so). Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart030 Posted 11 April Author Share Posted 11 April Thanks! The search continues. There is a picture of him in the army, will see if I can get it digitalized and share it here, it might be of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart030 Posted 11 April Author Share Posted 11 April 11 minutes ago, AOK4 said: If he was born in 1879, he can't be the man in the first list either, as this man was a Reservist (should have been born 1886-1894 or so). Jan Is this also the case if he volunteered instead of being conscripted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 11 April Share Posted 11 April To add to Jan´s post: the time frame for being a reservist is seven years, including his active service which could vary between one to three years depending on which branch he was active in. As the men were normally drafted when they completed their 20th birthday (unless they were studying or ill at the time of the draft or asked to be drafted later for various reasons), your relative would have been drafted 1900 or so. Normally active service took two years (infantry), so he would have been in the reserve until 1907/08. After that he would have been transfered to the Landwehr for 3-5 years, depending on the time of active service. After that he would be transfered to Landwehr 2 until he reached his 40th birthday (approx). After that he spent 4/5 more years in the Landsturm. At the outset of the war your ancestor was 35 years of age, so he was probably drafted into a Landwehr unit, unless he volunteered and was accepted in a different unit. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 12 April Share Posted 12 April 12 hours ago, GreyC said: To add to Jan´s post: the time frame for being a reservist is seven years, including his active service which could vary between one to three years depending on which branch he was active in. As the men were normally drafted when they completed their 20th birthday (unless they were studying or ill at the time of the draft or asked to be drafted later for various reasons), your relative would have been drafted 1900 or so. Normally active service took two years (infantry), so he would have been in the reserve until 1907/08. After that he would have been transfered to the Landwehr for 3-5 years, depending on the time of active service. After that he would be transfered to Landwehr 2 until he reached his 40th birthday (approx). After that he spent 4/5 more years in the Landsturm. At the outset of the war your ancestor was 35 years of age, so he was probably drafted into a Landwehr unit, unless he volunteered and was accepted in a different unit. GreyC Indeed, the point is that the man in the first Verlustliste was a Reservist. Bart's relative would have been called a Wehrmann. If he would have served before, he would have been a Wehrmann, and would have been mobilized (so no chance of volunteering). If he wouldn't have served before, he would have been a Ersatz-Reservist probably and could have volunteered in August 1914, but then he would have been trained at least a few weeks before being sent to the front, so can't have been wounded already in August (and his rank would be given as Kriegsfreiwilliger or Ersatz-Reservist and not Reservist). He wouldn't have been in an active unit either. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart030 Posted 13 April Author Share Posted 13 April I got to see the picture, it's weird that he seems to have a high rank (?). Not sure if the voluntary story is correct, the stories in the family are sparse and incomplete. He is the second guy on the picture with the 2 stars at his collar. Can somebody say something about the clothes/rank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deutscherinfanteriest Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April Hi those are Austrians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April He is not in the German army but in the kuk Army. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deutscherinfanteriest Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April I am not expert but seems boots left of artillery and right a cavalryman all privates except the 2 stars man who is a Korporal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April In this case two stars = Korporal GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deutscherinfanteriest Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April I collaborated with IPN for some polish graves and I collected some infos. Poles were mainly in the following Infantry Regiments: K.u.K. IR 10,13, 15, 20, 30, 40, 45, 55, 56, 57, 80, 89, 90, 95, 100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April Here you find the kuk loss lists: https://wiki.genealogy.net/Verlustlisten_Österreich-Ungarns_1914-1919/Digitalisate GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart030 Posted 13 April Author Share Posted 13 April He started his duty in Lemberg, (now Lviv) does that narrow down what regiment/compagnie/division he was in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart030 Posted 13 April Author Share Posted 13 April It seemed he was a 1 year volunteer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-year_volunteer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart030 Posted 13 April Author Share Posted 13 April 22 minutes ago, Bart030 said: He started his duty in Lemberg, (now Lviv) does that narrow down what regiment/compagnie/division he was in? Probably the 3rd army: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Army_(Austria-Hungary) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 13 April Share Posted 13 April I can‘t find him in the casualty lists and Lemberg was the home garrison of many regiments, too many to draw anything useful from. Click on L on the righthand side https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garnisonen_der_Landstreitkräfte_Österreich-Ungarns#L Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now