postitnote Posted 7 April Share Posted 7 April (edited) These medals were found hidden in a house in Birmingham by a relative of mine, still in their Victoria chocolate tin (I think the paper may be the original, it does appear to have chocolate stains on it!) There were other bits of memorabilia in there too - his veterans association badge (marked Fenwick B'ham), a lucky coin and a Coronation commemorative medallion. There is a nice mystery I have uncovered - George actually lived opposite the house where they were found. With help from the Birmingham History Forum and I made a timeline of George's family and worked out who lived in the house opposite, but haven't established the connection between the families, other than that they were neighbours for a long time and both wives were widowed not long apart. George died not long after the Coronation medal was added to the tin, and from my timeline, I think the medals may have been given to the neighbour not long after that. Nice quirks - the KSA ribbon is back to front and doesn't go through the clasps correctly, the Victory medal is back to front. George's bad stitching - his daugher was a corset finisher so I don't think she had anything to do with it! Questions: 1. Why does the ribbon bar have the rosette but the Mons Star medal doesn't have the clasp or a rosette? The record card doesn't mention clasp and roses and there is no sign of stitching, nor were the items found loose in the box. I know you had to apply in person for 'clasp and roses' and his base was in Scotland, so maybe he didn't bother. What does it mean on the medal record card where it says 'Disk' in the same handwriting as the Mons Star entry? Is that the rosette? I only have a scan of the front of the card off Ancestry, could it be on the back? I've seen on another thread that sometimes it isn't even recorded on the card. Also I have seen a variety of ways men wore the clasp and roses. I believe you could buy ready made ribbon bars, but this rose is under the plastic. 2. Why do all his medals have Scots Rifles and his old service number on them, when he transferred to the Cycle Corps in 1915? I know the formation and deployment of the Cyclist Corps was pretty confusing. Ie cyclists were in the regiments, then formed their own corps, then sent out to regiments in small groups. Is possible he was always physically with the Scots Rifles in France and just Cycle Corps 'administratively'? There is no way these medals have been tampered with, the finder was a elderly auntie who passed them directly to my mother in about 2003. Nothing has been added to the box or taken away. Edited 7 April by postitnote Add medal roll card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 7 April Admin Share Posted 7 April The MIC shows a cross with a dot in each corner against Sco Rif which shows the medals were inscribed thus. Disc means discharged. Image ©️ Ancestry. Nothing on reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 7 April Share Posted 7 April (edited) @postitnote Horton's QSA (Queens South Africa) medal has three nice 'battle' clasps on it, quite desirable for a Regimental collector. he did some service time in South Africa to qualify for the King's medal as well. You really should try to detrmine if a service record exists for him in the NA. I am guessing but I feel Disc - might indicate Discharged but @FROGSMILE or @Michelle Young will be along shortly to clarify I am certain. His medals are correctly impressed with the Number, Rank & Unit/Regiment he arrived in the French theatre with - 5 Nov 1914. His British war & Victory medas would be impressed with the highest rank he achieved (CPL) in the theatre of war. Edit - quite possible he did receive his 1914 star clasp, it might have just got separated from the other medals over the years. Edited 7 April by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 April Share Posted 7 April 1 minute ago, RNCVR said: I am guessing bt I feel Disc - might inducate Discharged… Yes that seems likely under the heading Action Taken, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April 3 minutes ago, RNCVR said: quite desirable for a Regimental collector I will be putting the set on the market shortly, as George isn't a relation and I haven't been able to trace any direct descendents sadly. I am just enjoying getting to know him in the meantime! A slightly chaotic, brave man. Pulled himself out of dire poverty like so many living in that part of Birmingham, and lived through 3 wars. Where he grew up was the worst slums, people literally had buckets for toilets. That nicer part of town he lived in during WW2 was bombed really badly, the factory where he worked making service rifles was blown up and he was lucky not to have been on shift, as they worked round the clock. It was Luftwaffe No 2 target in the whole country (No 1 being the spitfire factory). My family all lived round there, my mom who gave me the medals was born in a cellar during an air raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 7 April Admin Share Posted 7 April Yes I did say discharged in my earlier post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April 17 minutes ago, RNCVR said: You really should try to detrmine if a service record exists for him in the NA He was a lucky boy, never sick or injured! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April (edited) I am looking into a Mons Star I have, and am confused about the Clasp and Roses (rosettes). Wikipedia says: A "5th AUG.–22nd NOV. 1914" clasp was instituted in 1919... The clasp, together with two small silver roses, was awarded to those who had served under fire or who had operated within range of enemy mobile artillery in France or Belgium during the period between 5 August and 22 November 1914.... the clasp had to be claimed personally by the recipients, of whom a large number had either been demobilised from the army in early 1919 so were not receiving army orders and thus neglected to apply or had died in the intervening period....When the ribbon bar alone was worn, recipients of the clasp to the medal wore a small silver rosette button on the ribbon bar. The clasp and roses had to be sewn onto the ribbon. Looking online, I see a bewildering number of ways these items seem to have been worn - I attach a selection of photos. I am guessing that the demobilised men weren't given specific instructions on how to affix them to the medal? When it says claimed personally, I assume that means by post? Or did they have to go in person, which would put many people off presumably, if their regimental headquarters was a long way away? The medal I have doesn't have the clasp and rosette on it, but it does have a rose on the ribbon bar - the whole bar is under plastic. Clasp and roses are not mentioned on the record card. Does that mean my man was being cheeky and wearing a ribbon bar he got from someone else? (see my other post for more info on this medal) NB all the photos are screen snips from ebay and the like, shared for educational purposes only - please message me if you object to your image being used and I will remove. Edited 7 April by postitnote add link to previous post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 7 April Share Posted 7 April He was a lucky boy, never sick or injured! @postitnote Yes, it is amazing that he never contracted Enteric or Dysentry, both killed a lot of soldiers in SA. If you are intending to sell, pls offer the group on here first, I am certan there are Scottish Rifles collectors on the forum that might be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April 2 minutes ago, RNCVR said: it is amazing that he never contracted Enteric or Dysentry He'd grown up in the most insanitary slum conditions in Birmingham, probably immune to everything... 5 minutes ago, RNCVR said: If you are intending to sell, pls offer the group on here first Yes will do. Please do share the photos, I have high res images if anyone wants. All the documentation is electronic as I don't have a printer. Even though these medals are scruffy looking, I feel like they have so much heart and character in them, plus the story of them being hidden away. Perfectly imperfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 7 April Share Posted 7 April The clasp goes on the ribbon which is attached to the medal. The rose goes on the ribbon bar when just the thin strip of ribbon is worn (without medals). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April That's what I thought... but why two roses issued? I case you lost one?! Many men seem to have attached a rose to the bar and the medal ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 7 April Share Posted 7 April you have to remember, many soldiers could not read or write, period attestations and marriage certificates show a X as his mark. To read instructions on how to apply or attach a rose would be reliant on others, Chinese Whispers comes to mind. If you are considering purchasing a bar, beware all the variations out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April Very true. You'd think the army would have issued a nice diagram though... I'm really surprised by how chaotic the medals that I have are. I'd only ever seen medals at a distance before I was given these, and assumed they were all tidy and pristine. My George Horton had terrible sewing, wonky safety pins, his Kings SA ribbon on backwards, his Victory medal back to front, and the aforementioned rose on the bar but not the medal. Also his regiment had changed, but his old one was on the medals, which wasn't his doing of course, but adds to the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin GWF TEAM Posted 7 April Admin Share Posted 7 April 12 minutes ago, postitnote said: Yes will do. Please do share the photos, I have high res images if anyone wants. All the documentation is electronic as I don't have a printer. Even though these medals are scruffy looking, I feel like they have so much heart and character in them, plus the story of them being hidden away. Perfectly imperfect! We hope you appreciate the advice given concerning this soldier but as a new member of the GWF we would respectfully remind you of the forum rules (edited):- "Our policy is to keep the Forum as free of advertising as possible and we will remove overt promotion of companies and major businesses trying to use the GWF as a free marketing medium. The following sets out some do's and don’ts that we ask you to follow when using the Great War Forum (GWF). What can members do:- 1. Established members of the Forum with a post count of 50 or more can advertise free of charge in the GWF Classifieds section subject these rules and the detailed rules in the section itself. Time limits will be applied to different sections in the Classifieds area and will be stated in the rules at the head of such sections. What can’t members do:- 2. Advertise in any part of the GWF (including your signature) items that you are selling using eBay, Amazon Marketplace or similar sites. This means that links to items you are selling via eBay or similar sites are not allowed. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 7 April Admin Share Posted 7 April Topics Merged One soldier one thread please to avoid duplication and confusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April My other post was a general question about Mons Stars, the answers to which would be applicable to any Mons Star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April I just noticed he was transferred to 8th Divisional Cyclist Company from 02.12.14, cross checking his other records, he was already in France and remained there until September 1915. His trade before the Boer War was making bicycles, so no doubt he was useful to them. Does anyone here have a subscription to Wartime Memories, there's something on there about them: https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=8046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 8 April Share Posted 8 April 5 hours ago, postitnote said: That's what I thought... but why two roses issued? I case you lost one?! Many men seem to have attached a rose to the bar and the medal ribbon. Issue of insignia was generally done on the principal of enough to do TWO jackets. So although only one actual medal with the actual clasp would be issued, two rosettes representing the clasp would be issued to make up two ribband bars for wear on two jackets. However plenty of men were long out of uniform by the time they received this issue, and some just appear to have taken the view of putting more or less everything on the medals themselves instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 8 April Admin Share Posted 8 April 10 hours ago, postitnote said: Does anyone here have a subscription to Wartime Memories, there's something on there about them: You did read the GWF rules before registering? Link top left "Copyright The Moderators have a responsibility to ensure that we do not breach any Terms & Conditions laid down by copyright owners. Members may NOT use the GWF as a platform to ask parties who are subscribers to various subscription sites to download material on their behalf or to post it on the GWF." In any event the wartime memories project is unlikely to tell you anything more than you have accessed. The War Diary of the 8th Divisional Cyclist Company is available at TNA free if you register. See grey banner top of page https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352457 If new to researching soldiers of the Great War we also suggest you look at the Long Long Long Trail website (link top left next to 'Forum Rules'). https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/army-cyclist-corps/ and for completeness the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) war diary https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352484 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 8 April Admin Share Posted 8 April 11 hours ago, postitnote said: Also his regiment had changed, but his old one was on the medals, which wasn't his doing of course, but adds to the confusion If you read my reply to your first post you will see the answer. See also here https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 8 April Author Share Posted 8 April Why would they put Scots Rifles on all his medals though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 8 April Share Posted 8 April the regiment he initially entered service in WW1 , nothing to do with prior service or later regimental movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 8 April Admin Share Posted 8 April As ha 1 hour ago, postitnote said: Why would they put Scots Rifles on all his medals though? As has been pointed out - at least twice - and on the Long Long Trail link given at the outset -but for absolute clarity the campaign or war medals were named to the unit in which the soldier was serving when he first entered a theatre of war. In this soldier's case the 2nd Battalion Cameronians (Sottish Rifles) They were issued to demobilised soldiers by the Record Office relevant to his last unit because the medals were sent out by registered post to the address the soldier gave on demobilisation and to where all other correspondence would initially be sent. This protocol was adhered to because at the peak 30,000 medals were being posted each day. A slip which accompanied the BWM and VM medals stated:- "To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank.'" (Their Capitals) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postitnote Posted 12 April Author Share Posted 12 April I just saw something nice - George was mentioned in the war diary when he left for discharge. I hope he got to see the horse show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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