michaeldr Posted 7 April Share Posted 7 April (edited) What ship? - A report in today's Turkish newspaper - https://www.dailysabah.com/arts/rahmi-kocs-gonca-steamship-wins-top-honors-in-uks-classic-boat-awards/news suggests that the 'Gonca' took part in the Dardanelles campaign, but I'm having difficulties finding a link From the 'Mitchell Report' p.488 - “Minelayers Employed.—During 1914 and 1915 the minelayers 'Nousret,' 'Intibah,' 'Selamlık' and 'Samsun' were employed laying the Dardanelles minefields, but from 1916 onwards 'Nousret' only was so employed.” [Also - The name Gonca does not appear in the Report's Appendix B, p.499] * From the DS article - “After the Gallipoli Campaign, Gonca was towed to Gonca Cove near the Naval Base in Gölcük, taking its current name, where it was used as a transport ship by the Turkish Naval Forces until 1989.” - Does this mean that the ship was known by another name in 1915? - If so, which was it - 'Intibah,' 'Selamlık' or 'Samsun'? The only one I can find details on at the moment is the Samsun, but per Janes, her dimensions do not quite fit: Quote from DS - “The ship, 32 meters (10.5ft Oh Dear, Oh Dear! Apologies for a misplaced decimal point: 105ft ) long with a width of 6 meters (19.7ft) and a depth of 3.25 meters (10.7ft) ... ? [Janes has for Intibah - “No details known”] * edit to add Edited 7 April by michaeldr Misplaced decimal point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April 16 minutes ago, michaeldr said: The only one I can find details on at the moment is the Samsun, Wiki to the rescue see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mine_warfare_vessels_of_the_Ottoman_steam_navy Could this ship be the Geyret? [given in Mitchell as Gayret] and did it take part in the Dardanelles campaign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 8 April Share Posted 8 April The German built, Ottoman destroyer Gayret-i Vataniye ran aground on a reef off Varna at the end of October 1916. Her crew removed all useful equipment before blowing-up the wreck - it’s definitely not the same ship as the Gonca (they are nothing alike). She could however (possibly) be a reincarnation of what was formerly the Selanik, which in March 1915 transported mines to Nusret at Canakkale. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 8 April Author Share Posted 8 April MB, Thanks for your in-put here I'm beginning to think that there were two boats with very similar names, but different characteristics, which have become confused here Gayret (translates as Endeavour) the minelayer and the 'Gayret-i Vataniye' which translates as National Endeavour which was the ex-German SS138-class torpedo boat Gayret Type: Mayin dökme gemi (minelayer) Builder: Wigham Richardson & Co., Newcastle [see http://www.tynetugs.co.uk/shannon1885.html ] Displacement: 144gt, 37nt, 130t Dimentions: L 30.6m, B 5.8m, D 3.4m Hull: Iron Machinery: Steam, 1 shaft Engine: 1 compound 2 cycle vertical, 70nhp, A Shanks & Son Boiler: 1 Scotch Speed: (1914) 9knts Bunkers: _ Complement: _ Armament: (1914) 15 mines Gayret (Yd No.86) (edited history – for full details see p.189 of Ottoman Steam Navy & above Tyne Tugs page) Ordered: 1885 Laid down: 1885. Launched: 1885 Trials: 1885 – named Shannon (E.A. Gore, Limerick) 1890 – named Harlequin (B. Nicholson, Limerick) & converted to salvage tug 18.6.1907 – sold to Ottoman Govt., & named Gayret 30.7.1914 – Convt. into minelayer by Tersane-i Amire, Istanbul The text of the Ottoman Steam Navy is unclear and they too may have confused the two ships e.g: page 29 “14-16 August 1914: Selanik and Giresun lay mine barrages from Çanakkale. Nümume-i Hamiyet and Gayret-i Vataniye join flotilla from Izmit” I think that this could well be a ref to the minelayer and not to the torpedo boat: ie to Gayret (and not to Gayret-i Vataniye) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wigeon Posted 8 April Share Posted 8 April Probably barking up the wrong tree but the Wikipedia entry for a Turkish ship named Gonca states that it was originally named Selanik and was used as a minelayer during the First World War. German Naval records for the Great War, digitised and available from NARA, show a ship named Selanik. One document describes it as part of the Minendienst whilst I have attached a rather more explicit reference below, see third column from right line 14. Image courtesy NARA , reference RG 242 T1022-1410-320. Other documents list it as a "minendampfer" though another has it serving as a Lotsenschlepper . No KTB seems to be available from NARA and BAMA has nothing that I can find in the catalogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 9 April Share Posted 9 April (edited) I think that if we are ever going to solve the conundrum then we have to move away from the unsubstantiated infomation shown on Wiki and seek primary source verification. According to Lloyd’s register of shipping ‘Selanik’ started out as a German built steam tug. The ship was operating in Selanik (now Thesalonika) up until 1912 when Greece captured the port, after which (thanks to help from the French) the ship escaped Greek hands and was subsequently acquired by the Ottoman government and converted to a mine layer. What we currently lack is any authenticated verification that ‘Selanik’ and ‘Gonca’ are in fact one and the same (despite some claiming it to be). I also appreciate that post-war the vessel appears to have been repurposed and underwent conversion into a passenger steamer. I’m confident that there must be enough of a footprint to hunt down the vessel’s history, but I’m afraid that I don’t have time for that today. MB Edited 9 April by KizmeRD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 9 April Share Posted 9 April (edited) Hi, I talked to the German author of the book "The Ottoman Steam Navy". From memory this is what he told me: Built as Salonika renamed Selanik around 1913, renamed Gonça around 1925 (named after a village near the Navy yard of that period) and used as a ferry to transport shipyard workers to the yard from the 1940s to 1970s. The photo published in Daily Sabah shows a heavily altered deck based on the appearance of the ship as ferry. The author had visited the ship a few times before it became a yacht later on and knows it quite well. GreyC Edited 9 April by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 9 April Author Share Posted 9 April (edited) This article https://www.7deniz.net/kiymeti-bilinmeyen-bir-kahraman-romorkor-selanik-romorkoru also refers to Lloyds List I wonder if it's the same edition that MK saw? If I've understood it correctly, the article proposes that the boat built in 1872 is today's Gonca. However, is the is description which LL gives, “IronSe3MstSr,” that of a tug? The quest here is plagued by ships of the same, or very similar names. * So I wonder then if this 1872 boat is not actually the similarly named Selanik which the Russians sank in May 1915? From the The Ottoman Steam Navy (see p.47) “9 May 1915: The Russian destroyers Derzkiy and Bespokoyniy enter the harbour at Kozlu at 0545hrs and shell mining installations and coaling stages, and sink the collier Selanik.” This sinking is also given in The Mitchell Report - see page 219, Appendix B, which appears to be based on information supplied by the Turks in 1918/9 The LL shown in the above link also gives the engine as being “2 cylinder, 122 nhp.” However, Classic Boat of October 27, 2023, has the Gonca's engine as “Triple-expansion steam, 550hp” Likewise The Ottoman Steam Navy has a similar specification for the tug/minelayer Selanik Type: Mayin dokme gemi (minelayer) Builder: Displacement: 270t Dimensions: Hull: Steel Machinery: Steam, 1 shaft Engine: 1 triple 3 cyl Boiler: 1 Speed: (1911) 12kts Bunkers: Complement: Armament: (1911) 1-37mm QF, 25 mines …................................................................................ The Classic Boat article asks - “The question is: are the Selanik – whose fate is unknown – and Gonca the same ship?” Good Question! And still not clear. *Footnote: the Ottoman Steam Navy also shows another 'Selanik' in the Aegean, in March 1866 – see Appendix 3, p.193 Edited 9 April by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 9 April Share Posted 9 April IronSc3MstSr describes a iron hulled screw driven auxiliary 3 masted schooner. This sailing vessel is 230 foot long according to Lloyds Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 9 April Share Posted 9 April (edited) 57 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said: This sailing vessel is 230 foot long according to Lloyds Well, nobody seems to have taken note of what I wrote, but nonetheless like Tony I do not think that the Gonça pictured in the newspaper article is almost 77 meters long. It´s more around the 30 meters that are given for the tug that, according to the author of The Ottoman Steam Navy was the former Salonika and became the Selanik around 1912/13 and then Gonça around 1925. Author Langensiepen just confirmed that the Selanik of 1872 is the ship sunk 1915. The Gonça had the tripple expansion engine also mentioned in Classic Boats. GreyC Edited 9 April by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 9 April Share Posted 9 April Thanks for clearing that up GreyC, and I can only repeat the warning that (although it generally does a good job) - not everything you read in Wiki is true. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 9 April Share Posted 9 April 1 minute ago, KizmeRD said: Thanks for clearing that up GreyC Pleasure! GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 10 April Author Share Posted 10 April 8 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said: IronSc3MstSr describes a iron hulled screw driven auxiliary 3 masted schooner. This sailing vessel is 230 foot long according to Lloyds Tony Tony Many thanks for that clarification regards, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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