What was the role of a regiment, and it's Colonel etc, during WW1 ?

[Simon Cains]

Not sure which topic this should be in.  Sorry I have no military background.  But I understand that before WW1, and after, a regiment would only have maybe 2 or 3 battalions, one perhaps for training and recruiting.  A regiment would usually be commanded by a Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel ?   But during WW1, regiments expanded enormously, e.g. the West Yorkshire Regiment had up to 27 battalions, which were scattered throughout 11 different divisions, plus 7 home defense and training battalions.  So would their commanding officer and his team have much contact with all these active battalions, or be mostly concerned with recruitment and training ?  Did Regimental commanders tend to stay in the UK during WW1 ?   

I am interested because my great-grandfather was an RSM, and one ex-officer told me the RSM would be the Regimental commander's right-hand man.  However lots of RSMs were killed on active service, so they didn't stay in the UK or in rear camps to supervise recruitment and training.  

Did soldiers on active service have much, if any, contact with their regiment headquarters ?

Thanks very much.

[Keith_history_buff]

For starters, a line infantry regiment would have a Colonel-in-Chief. For the South Wales Borderers, this man was George Paton, born 1841, and appointed 26 November 1902. He remained in the post until 26 February 1922. He was a Major General since 8 April 1898. I am ignorant as to what ceremonial duties he would have performed during peacetime.

In the Hapsburg Empire, the head of the regiment was the Inhaber. There were financial benefits, as I understand it. As I understand it, European regiments would typically consist of 3 or 4 battalions, and they would deploy together. The Cardwell and Childers reforms would see two-battalion regiments, with one battalion overseas, and the other performing home service.

In the French Army, there was the post of chef de bataillon. The CO of the bataillon was a Major, whereas British battalions were commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel. The two Lieutenant Colonels of the South Wales Borderers in 1914 were Hugh Gilbert Casson (1866-1951) and H E Burleigh Leach (1870-1936).

I believe there would be one RSM per battalion, and one CSM per infantry company.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Simon Cains said:

I am interested because my great-grandfather was an RSM, and one ex-officer told me the RSM would be the Regimental commander's right-hand man. 

Your post touches on lots of things, but seems to me this is the key thing you are interested in. Each Infantry Battalion had a "Regimental" Sergeant Major, who would serve as part of the Battalion Headquarters. Along with the Battalion Adjutant he would often be one of the people the Battalion Commander, (usually a Lieutenant Colonel), had most interaction with on a daily basis, (if the C.O. had any sense !).

Cheers,
Peter

[Simon Cains]

Thanks for your help on this. I am curious whether all those WW1 battalions had any links back to Battalion HQ in York ( my family lived there for several generations, after my great grandfather was posted to Fulford Barracks there around 1911).  I see that their Colonel in WW1 was Sir William Fry  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Yorkshire_Regiment#Colonels_of_the_Regiment  although apparently he was also Commander of 30th division, so that must have been a more full-time role.   The only Colonel in Chief listed is Princess Mary in 1947.

[PRC]

10 hours ago, Simon Cains said:

I am curious whether all those WW1 battalions had any links back to Battalion HQ in York

Probably more a question for a forum member like @FROGSMILE, but my understanding was that the Regiment served as the keeper of the Regimental traditions, with the Depot serving as a repository for the Regimental records, trophies, silver, etc. The role of the Depot Stores quickly moved on from a central storehouse for the UK based Battalions to be one of relevance to the Military District where it was located. The responsibility for initial training also moved on to the UK based Battalions - the Special Reserve Battalions were now more than just a peacetime cadre administering a pool of reserves for example. This training would have been happening away from the Depot, although other non-regimental units might be backfilling the accommodation.

But day to day my understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the Regiment Command \ Depot was at best peripheral to the Regiments Battalions. Those serving overseas would send a copy of the War Diary monthly for storage. But as with all Regiments the Records Office facility for individual soldiers and officers records had moved away from the individual depot and to a shared Records Office. (There was a York 1 and York 2 - I'm sure if needed a forum member could tell us which one dealt with the West Yorkshires!)

Individual officers might visit the depot as part of the applying for a commission or in transit between posting, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of the wartime commissions never went there.

Certainly the Command Structure for individual Battalions would not have run through the Regiment - they would look to Brigade \ Division \ Army \ Expeditionary Force HQ as their escalating chain of command.

I don't know if it helps at all but here's a link to The Prince of Wales's Own (West Yorkshire Regiment) pages in the 1915 edition of Hart's Annual List. The title of the Regiment in itself shows they have Royal Patronage. Once you move beyond the 1st and 2nd Battalion you will see that every Battalion has a space for an Honorary Colonel to be shown - in the case of the 3rd Battalion that is The King. Not every one has a name shown, but does hint at the ceremonial nature of the role. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100895867

And going back to the Lieutenant Colonels of the 1st and 2nd Battalions both can be seen to have 30 years service, with one promoted in 1912 and the other in early 1914. Regimental Colonel William Fry made Lieutenant Colonel after only 22 years of service although it may only be a co-incidence that this promotion came during the period of the Boer War. Capable as they probably all were, promotion unfortunately was as much a question of buggins turn and was a stepping stone to a retirement rather than higher command.

That's the last edition of Harts but heres a link to the regiments' pages in the November 1918 British Army Monthly List. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123099609

Regimental Sergeant Majors are not listed but hopefully still of interest. The sheer volume of officers even just in 1915 let alone 1918 I think gives some indication of how peripheral the Regiment Depot was - no matter how big the mess was you were never going to be able to sit them all down to supper

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 7 April by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Probably more a question for a forum member like @FROGSMILE, but my understanding was that the Regiment served as the keeper of the Regimental traditions, with the Depot serving as a repository for the Regimental records, trophies, silver, etc. The role of the Depot Stores quickly moved on from a central storehouse for the UK based Battalions to be one of relevance to the Military District where it was located. The responsibility for initial training also moved on to the UK based Battalions - the Special Reserve Battalions were now more than just a peacetime cadre administering a pool of reserves for example. This training would have been happening away from the Depot, although other non-regimental units might be backfilling the accommodation.

But day to day my understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the Regiment Command \ Depot was at best peripheral to the Regiments Battalions. Those serving overseas would send a copy of the War Diary monthly for storage. But as with all Regiments the Records Office facility for individual soldiers and officers records had moved away from the individual depot and to a shared Records Office. (There was a York 1 and York 2 - I'm sure if needed a forum member could tell us which one dealt with the West Yorkshires!)

Individual officers might visit the depot as part of the applying for a commission or in transit between posting, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of the wartime commissions never went there.

Certainly the Command Structure for individual Battalions would not have run through the Regiment - they would look to Brigade \ Division \ Army \ Expeditionary Force HQ as their escalating chain of command.

I don't know if it helps at all but here's a link to The Prince of Wales's Own (West Yorkshire Regiment) pages in the 1915 edition of Hart's Annual List. The title of the Regiment in itself shows they have Royal Patronage. Once you move beyond the 1st and 2nd Battalion you will see that every Battalion has a space for an Honorary Colonel to be shown - in the case of the 3rd Battalion that is The King. Not every one has a name shown, but does hint at the ceremonial nature of the role. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100895867

And going back to the Lieutenant Colonels of the 1st and 2nd Battalions both can be seen to have 30 years service, with one promoted in 1912 and the other in early 1914. Regimental Colonel William Fry made Lieutenant Colonel after only 22 years of service although it may only be a co-incidence that this promotion came during the period of the Boer War. Capable as they probably all were, promotion unfortunately was as much a question of buggins turn and was a stepping stone to a retirement rather than higher command.

That's the last edition of Harts but heres a link to the regiments' pages in the November 1918 British Army Monthly List. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123099609

Regimental Sergeant Majors are not listed but hopefully still of interest. The sheer volume of officers even just in 1915 let alone 1918 I think gives some indication of how peripheral the Regiment Depot was - no matter how big the mess was you were never going to be all to sit them down to supper

Cheers,
Peter

You’ve explained it perfectly Peter.  The only thing I would add is that a retired officer, often a General, would generally be appointed to each regiment as ‘The Regimental Colonel’  (officially - The Honorary Colonel of the Regiment**) and he would usually be contacted through the depot and regimental headquarters, which became his postal address for regimental business.  He acted as the pater familias for the regiment, represented its interests at the Horse Guards HQ in London and also routinely vetted via interview prospective junior officers (officer aspirants) for the regular battalions to see if they would fit in the regiment.  He would endorse their application, or not, after looking at their demeanour and activities (sports, etc.) plus family background.  Clearly he could not do the latter activity for all the officers of Territorial and war-raised battalions, but still carried out all the other activities associated with his appointment.  When undertaking regimental duties he would usually wear regimental dress and rank, but when attending events at a higher level then he would dress in the uniform of his substantive rank.

** That is not the same as the Colonel in Chief of the Regiment, who might be a member of Royalty, either British, or foreign.

Edited 7 April by FROGSMILE

[Simon Cains]

On 07/04/2024 at 00:38, PRC said:

Your post touches on lots of things, but seems to me this is the key thing you are interested in. Each Infantry Battalion had a "Regimental" Sergeant Major, who would serve as part of the Battalion Headquarters. Along with the Battalion Adjutant he would often be one of the people the Battalion Commander, (usually a Lieutenant Colonel), had most interaction with on a daily basis, (if the C.O. had any sense !).

Cheers,
Peter

OK thanks, so the RSM reported to the battalion commander, not the Regimental commander.  That makes a lot more sense now.  I misunderstood what a retired officer told me.   So I guess this also comes back to our family history that my g-grandfather ( see my picture) was an RSM with a home battalion, but when his younger brother was killed, he transferred to an active battalion and was in the front line 30 days later.  So I am not sure which commander would have authorised that transfer ?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Simon Cains said:

OK thanks, so the RSM reported to the battalion commander, not the Regimental commander.  That makes a lot more sense now.  I misunderstood what a retired officer told me.   So I guess this also comes back to our family history that my g-grandfather ( see my picture) was an RSM with a home battalion, but when his younger brother was killed, he transferred to an active battalion and was in the front line 30 days later.  So I am not sure which commander would have authorised that transfer ?

Postings were organised by Regimental Manning and Records Offices.  Every regiment had one of these and their location was generally recorded in the annual Army List issued by the War Office under each individual regiment.  That for the West Yorkshire Regiment was at York.

These records offices were the individual regiment’s administrative hubs and communicated with depots and reserve battalions and maintained the shadow service records for all soldiers and officers.  During the war the regiments with larger recruiting areas simply couldn’t cope with the increased numbers despite the fact that their staffs (now with many locally employed women to help) had usually over doubled in size.  For these larger regiments, many established a satellite, or secondary records office, to cover the increased numbers.  At the end of the war these were closed.

As well as maintaining the records it was the job of these offices to keep their regular battalions manned to establishment.  However, things moved very quickly on the battlefield and the system had to be reformed so that the Infantry Base Depots had the authority to divert drafts of reinforcements to wherever they were needed upon arrival in France and the records offices were then notified after the event.

The records offices were notified via paper records known as Part Two (II) Orders that were issued daily at battalions, sent to their linked ‘third line’ administrative hubs at ‘the Base’ (near coastal ports) and then onwards to the records offices in Britain and Ireland (the vast majority in Dublin).  These Part II Orders typically included things like names ranks and numbers (nominal rolls) of drafts received.  Similar rolls of NCOs who had attended various training courses listing their new qualifications.  Attachments and Detachments, Promotions, Casualties, Courts Martials, Punishments, Increases or reductions in pay for other reasons, the starting and stopping of various allowances and, most importantly, Strength Returns.  On a daily basis they were probably the principal effort for clerical staff and constantly changing.

 

Edited 8 April by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Simon Cains said:

So I am not sure which commander would have authorised that transfer ?

Ultimately the posting would have been signed off by the commanding officer of the battalion he was serving with. It was a bit of a trade off - if he was young enough, (and I believe for other ranks the British Army was working to an upper limit of 42 for campaigning in the field when Britain went to war) and fit enough, then the main reason for retaining him up until then was that his experience was of a greater value on the home establishment training replacement drafts and newly commissioned officers, helping to instill some Regular Army ethos.

Of course if he was older, and\or health was potentially an issue then the decision for him to remain on the home establishment was probably easier to make. He may have applied earlier to go out to one of the overseas battalions but turned down for those reasons.

So pure speculation on my part but I may have had to use his personal connection to the C.O. to get the green light following the death of his brother.

Another complicating factor was that there also had to be a vacancy for an R.S.M. - with only one per Battalion there was a very limited pool of positions, so it could already be that he was in the queue for overseas deployment before the death of his brother.

Cheers,
Peter

[Simon Cains]

Thanks, very helpful.