Harry Plumb - 2nd Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment

[Neil Arnott]

Am totally new here so hope this is acceptable and relevant!

My grand-uncle Harry Plumb (born Hull 1887) served in the 2nd Battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment - in 1911 he was a Corporal. He had been in India for sometime (in 1904 he married Alice Maude Mortimer, the daughter of a soldier serving in India, having three children, two of whom died in 1908 along with his wife)

I am looking for any information regarding where he may have served during the Great War (I am assuming he was still in the 2nd Battalion then and returned to England before serving in France, Macedonia and Salonika although I have no evidence of this - he lived in India after the war and was I believe employed by a tea plantation (family lore is that he owned it but I suspect that is not true). He eventually died in  Melbourne in 1959

Any help or information would be very gratefully received - I'm only just finding out about the complexities of wartime service and the difficulties in tracking people down!

Many thanks!

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum

This is his Medal Index Card - EYR number 8068.

He was only entitled to the British War Medal, which means he was not in a Theatre of War

His Medal Roll states he only served with the 1st Garrison Battalion and was still serving when the Rolls were compiled (in 1920). The 1st Gn Bn served in India, so it seems Harry only served there during WW1.

Regards

Russ

 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Neil Arnott said:

He had been in India for sometime (in 1904 he married Alice Maude Mortimer, the daughter of a soldier serving in India, having three children, two of whom died in 1908 along with his wife)

Hi @Neil Arnott and welcome to the forum

Paul Nixon's Army Service number site shows the Regular Army Battalions of the East Yorkshire Regiment would have issued regimental service number 8068 at some point between the 27th February 1904 (7674) and the 13th January 1905 (8082). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/12/east-yorkshire-regiment-1st-and-2nd.html

Narrowing it down using the records of those discharged prior to the Great War.

8067 Harold Alfred Carr, who had no previous military experience, attested at Beverley on the 12th January 1905 for a short service of 12 years in the Regular Army.  This was to be split 9 years in the colours, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full pay, board & lodging, clothing and medical care) and 3 in the reserves, (i.e. back in civvy street, subject to military discipline only while attending refresher training, receiving half-pay and access to medical care but with liability for immediate recall in the event of a national emergency such as war). Posted to the East Yorkshire Regiment, he reached the Depot at Beverley on the same day. Then or shortly after his service number of 8067 would have been issued. He did not complete basic training but was discharged on the 8th April 1905 as not likely to make an efficient soldier.

8070 George Alexander Lewis, then serving in the Suffolk  Militia, attested at Bury St. Edmunds on the 12th January 1905 for a short service of 12 years in the Regular Army.  This was to be split 9 years in the colours and 3 in the reserves. Posted to the East Yorkshire Regiment, he reached the Depot at Beverley on the 16th January 1905. Then or shortly after his service number of 8070 would have been issued. After completing basic training he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 27th April 1905 but did not leave the UK. He deserted in December 1905 but eventually handed himself in at the Depot in December 1908. His disciplinary record subsequently was appalling and after time in Military Prison the Army finally gave him a dishonourable discharge for Misconduct on the 11th August 1909. He had not served outside the UK.

_________________________________

So if you great uncle was born in 1887 he would have been at best 18 when he reached the Depot at Beverley between 12th & 16th January 1905 - and already married to boot. That of course assumes he was recruited in the UK - it was not unknown for UK nationals to be recruited in-country and report directly to the local battalion who would then contact the regimental depot for an appropriate service number -  but it was not very common and I don't think I've ever come across a case of it in India.

It would be unlikely that he would be sent out to India until he had completed his basic trainining as a minimum. A wider search of service records including for those who continued to serve in the Great War era, may bring up recurring elements that might have applied to your relative.

The 23 year old Corporal Harry Plumb, born Hull, Yorkshire  and recorded in Barracks at Fyzabad with the 2nd Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment, is also recorded as single - not as a widower. That would tend to suggest that the marriage in Karachi in 1904 of a Harry Plumb is another man.

Cheers,
Peter

[Neil Arnott]

Thank you so much for such a detailed and quick response - far better than I was hoping for!

 

I think as Peter says there is a danger here that I am looking for the 'wrong Harry Plumb' (sounds like a premise for a Michael Caine film!). One of the issues is that every male antecedent of mine appears to have been called Harold or Harry which only adds to the confusion

The dates don't seem to be adding up but I am still chasing this down - the trouble is at this stage I haven't been able to find a different Harry Plumb that the marriage details etc would fit - but for now I'm working on the assumption that my great uncle left Leeds somewhere between 1901 and 1911 for India as part of the East Yorkshire Regiment - that does seem to add up.

Since I posted on Friday I've discovered however, that in the 1921 Census Harry Plumb (still listed at his parents' address of 8 Buckingham Street in Hull) is listed as an absent voter - with the indication that he was a Corporal in the EYR number 4334065. He would have been around 34 years old by this point so I am presuming he was still in India and still in service?

If anyone can add anything to help clear (or even muddy the waters further) that would be great

Many thanks in advance

Neil

[Neil Arnott]

Further to my previous - the 1920 Missing Voter records confirms my Great Uncle's number as 8068 so the information presented above is spot on - thank you!

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Neil Arnott said:

with the indication that he was a Corporal in the EYR number 4334065.

While the 1920 Army renumbering was intended to give a soldier a single service number that would apply throughout his subsequent career, they had to start somewhere. That was either the regiment they were serving with at the time the numbering scheme was introduced or which they subsequently joined as a new recruit. The number block allocated to the East Yorkshire Regiment to cover both eventualities ran from 4334001 to 4379000. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

As you can see he was pretty close to the start of the block. He was also likely to be one of the longest serving other ranks.

Being included in the Army renumbering makes it very likely his service records were retained by the Ministry of Defence and are currently part of the great tranfer of records going on from the MoD to the National Archive. They were not on the list released a few years back of records retained for those born before the end of 1900, but that is now known to be incomplete. I don't know if @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr and @Keith_history_buff , who between them were able to help with a similar sort of query earlier on today, may have more luck.

The MoD website now advises to start with a Freedom of Information request to the National Archive. https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

Cheers,
Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

I don't know if @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr .................may have more luck.

No record of that 7 digit number in UK, Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971 (Ancestry) I'm afraid.

[Neil Arnott]

Thanks both - have submitted an FOI request so fingers crossed!

Neil

[chaz]

@neverforget  anything to add ??

[sadbrewer]

7 hours ago, Neil Arnott said:

Thank you so much for such a detailed and quick response - far better than I was hoping for!

 

I think as Peter says there is a danger here that I am looking for the 'wrong Harry Plumb' (sounds like a premise for a Michael Caine film!). One of the issues is that every male antecedent of mine appears to have been called Harold or Harry which only adds to the confusion

The dates don't seem to be adding up but I am still chasing this down - the trouble is at this stage I haven't been able to find a different Harry Plumb that the marriage details etc would fit - but for now I'm working on the assumption that my great uncle left Leeds somewhere between 1901 and 1911 for India as part of the East Yorkshire Regiment - that does seem to add up.

Since I posted on Friday I've discovered however, that in the 1921 Census Harry Plumb (still listed at his parents' address of 8 Buckingham Street in Hull) is listed as an absent voter - with the indication that he was a Corporal in the EYR number 4334065. He would have been around 34 years old by this point so I am presuming he was still in India and still in service?

If anyone can add anything to help clear (or even muddy the waters further) that would be great

Many thanks in advance

Neil

If he is from 8 Buckingham St, he and or his father were coal men. 

[Neil Arnott]

8 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

If he is from 8 Buckingham St, he and or his father were coal men. 

Yes that was his father (also Harry, of course!!). Thank you!

[sadbrewer]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arnott said:

Yes that was his father (also Harry, of course!!). Thank you!

Harry junior's brother was out in Singapore in 1908.

[Keith_history_buff]

The 1911 Army Census, licenced to Fold3/ForcesWarRecords, indicates that Harry Plumb was with G & H companies. Also in the battalion is Frank Plumb, born Moulton, Suffolk circa 1885. Are the two of them related?

[Neil Arnott]

Just now, sadbrewer said:

Harry junior's brother was out in Singapore in 1908.

Thank you so much - that's fantastic. Arthur John Plumb (six years older than Harry) spent much of his life in Singapore and the surrounding area working as a dock maanger - he's next on my hit-list to track down so that is really helpful!

1 minute ago, Keith_history_buff said:

The 1911 Army Census, licenced to Fold3/ForcesWarRecords, indicates that Harry Plumb was with G & H companies. Also in the battalion is Frank Plumb, born Moulton, Suffolk circa 1885. Are the two of them related?

Not to the best of my knowledge - the family hailed originally from Cambridgeshire 2/3 generations previously, and then Hull. I've not come across a Frank but you never know!! Thank you though

[Keith_history_buff]

I find the 7 digit numbers scary, insofar as there appear to be subgroups. One batch of numbers is issued to men who enlist in the regiment under Territorial Force terms of service. It won't be until a lot more records are in the public domain that we will be able to do the "train spotting" activity that is common with WW1 service numbers on this forum.

Given that he served 9 years from January 1905 onwards, then served in the war, it makes sense that he stayed on to serve in excess of 18 years with the colours, and to qualify for a full army pension. 

Anecdotally, I have been led to believe that men with "low numbers" were respected, and he was the 65th soldier in the regiment to be renumbered. I have no documentary evidence to support what I have just stated. If this sounds familiar to anyone reading, and can shed further light, please do speak up.

The paradox with military genealogy, and the British Army in particular is to follow:
If a soldier served prior to 1914, and did not serve long enough for a pension, there was no need to retain their record. For soldiers who were in receipt of a pension, having served with the colours for 18+ years, Kings Regulations state their records are to be retained indefinitely. I have come across half a dozen men who do not have surviving service records, and yet their records were not held by the Army's pension administrator, Royal Hospital Chelsea.

As mentioned previously in the thread, there have been instances of persons whose family member was not appearing on the discharge index, yet further searching among the service records for soldiers serving in 1920 and beyond, so it is worth approaching The National Archives UK and requesting they search.

There is a H Plumb born 23 Nov 1889 who was an army officer. Is there any possibility this is him, was he commissioned prior to being discharged from the army, do you know? He has a p-number of P48080

[Neil Arnott]

1 minute ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I find the 7 digit numbers scary, insofar as there appear to be subgroups. One batch of numbers is issued to men who enlist in the regiment under Territorial Force terms of service. It won't be until a lot more records are in the public domain that we will be able to do the "train spotting" activity that is common with WW1 service numbers on this forum.

Given that he served 9 years from January 1905 onwards, then served in the war, it makes sense that he stayed on to serve in excess of 18 years with the colours, and to qualify for a full army pension. 

Anecdotally, I have been led to believe that men with "low numbers" were respected, and he was the 65th soldier in the regiment to be renumbered. I have no documentary evidence to support what I have just stated. If this sounds familiar to anyone reading, and can shed further light, please do speak up.

The paradox with military genealogy, and the British Army in particular is to follow:
If a soldier served prior to 1914, and did not serve long enough for a pension, there was no need to retain their record. For soldiers who were in receipt of a pension, having served with the colours for 18+ years, Kings Regulations state their records are to be retained indefinitely. I have come across half a dozen men who do not have surviving service records, and yet their records were not held by the Army's pension administrator, Royal Hospital Chelsea.

As mentioned previously in the thread, there have been instances of persons whose family member was not appearing on the discharge index, yet further searching among the service records for soldiers serving in 1920 and beyond, so it is worth approaching The National Archives UK and requesting they search.

There is a H Plumb born 23 Nov 1889 who was an army officer. Is there any possibility this is him, was he commissioned prior to being discharged from the army, do you know? He has a p-number of P48080

Having dug a bit further (and realised I was wrong with the early marriage in 1904 which I had attributed to him) I now believe that he joined up in late 1904/early 1905 and served through the war (based in India with the 1st Garrison Battalion. He is listed as absent from the elctoral roll in 1920 and 1921 - and then I think he married a Myrtle Rafael in Cawnpore (Kanpur) in March 1923 - if this is him then his occupation by this date is shown as an Office Manager. This would tie in with him serving the 18 years to get his pension - he must have left the army shortly before marrying. My understanding is that he then had a long and distinguished career in one or more tea plantations but I'm still trying to authenticate that!

I'm fairly sure he was born in 1887 so it's not likely to be him I think

Many thanks though - I'm new to all this and it is absolutely fascinating!

Neil

[PRC]

@Neil Arnott

Quite a few surviving records in the pre-war series WO97 who were dismissed not likely to become an efficient soldier but going up from 8068 I eventually found one that might give some insight into your grand-uncles early Army career.

8088. Frederick William Hart, then serving in the 3rd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment, attested in the Regular Army at Kettering on the 24th January 1905 for a short service of 12 years, split 9 years in the colours and 3 in the reserves. He reached the Depot of the East Yorkshire Regiment at Beverley on the 27th and then or shortly afterwards he was issued with regimental service number 8088. After completing basic trainining he was transferred to the 2nd Battalion on the 27th April 1905. While still in the UK he gained his 3rd Class certificate of Education in March and the 2nd Class one in September 1905. On the 28th December 1905 he sailed for India.
However while out in India something happened to adversely affect his health, but no specific details are given in what remains of his records. The medical discharge process started at Maymyo on the 4th October 1906.
He was discharged from the Army at Netley Hospital in the UK on the 11th December 1906, no longer physically fit for Army Service

Cheers,
Peter

[Neil Arnott]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

@Neil Arnott

Quite a few surviving records in the pre-war series WO97 who were dismissed not likely to become an efficient soldier but going up from 8068 I eventually found one that might give some insight into your grand-uncles early Army career.

8088. Frederick William Hart, then serving in the 3rd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment, attested in the Regular Army at Kettering on the 24th January 1905 for a short service of 12 years, split 9 years in the colours and 3 in the reserves. He reached the Depot of the East Yorkshire Regiment at Beverley on the 27th and then or shortly afterwards he was issued with regimental service number 8088. After completing basic trainining he was transferred to the 2nd Battalion on the 27th April 1905. While still in the UK he gained his 3rd Class certificate of Education in March and the 2nd Class one in September 1905. On the 28th December 1905 he sailed for India.
However while out in India something happened to adversely affect his health, but no specific details are given in what remains of his records. The medical discharge process started at Maymyo on the 4th October 1906.
He was discharged from the Army at Netley Hospital in the UK on the 11th December 1906, no longer physically fit for Army Service

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter - so it's probably fair to assume that they would have had a very similar introduction to army life and may well have been together during that early training and possibly even sailed for India on the same ship. Amazing!

Thank you!

[neverforget]

2 hours ago, chaz said:

@neverforget  anything to add ??

No Chaz. I did have a look but he's not "one of mine". Though my my grandfather was indeed a Harry Plumb.  

Edited 7 April by neverforget

[PRC]

28 minutes ago, Neil Arnott said:

so it's probably fair to assume that they would have had a very similar introduction to army life and may well have been together during that early training and possibly even sailed for India on the same ship.

You probably need to find a few more examples and even then it will only be inference, but it's already looking plausible that that is how his early army life went.

I'm afraid my budget doesn't extend to subscribing to Ancestry or FindMyPast so can't check out the surviving Great War records there. But from what can be seen on the publicly available indexes:-
8061 John Thomas Calvert, enlisted 1905, has surviving service records, (and a Medal Index Card (MiC), which shows he must have served in the Great War), according to FindMyPast. Familysearch shows them coming from the WO363 Burnt records set, so should be service records on Ancestry, but not spotting anything obvious. Could potentially be down as pension records but since Ancestry changed how they displayed indexing information this is nigh on impossible to tell.

8076 Robert John Whaley - service records on FindMyPast and Ancestry. FindMyPast have indexed them to 1916, so could be a red herring, but he was old enough to have enlisted in 1905. No obvious MiC, but could have been home service only.

8077 Samuel Sharp has service records on FindMyPast but have indexed them to 1919 which likely relates to his discharge. Familysearch says they are from the WO364 unburnt series. Those are likely to be on Ancestry as pension records.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales one of the barracks return for the 2nd Battalion had Harry Plumb in page 5. It looks like Samuel Sharp is on page 4. John Thomas Calvert and Robert John Whaley however look to be back in civvy street.

If you have the time you can keep on expanding the search. One of the things that turns up from time in the records of those who served in peacetime is there medical record sheet. These were completed even with nil returns even time a man changes stations and so in theory came under the care of the local resident MO. While things like Harts can tell you where effectively the Battaliom was headquartered, these medical records can show you how parts of the battalion moved around over the course of the year.

Good luck with your search and hope the FoI request turns up trumps - please let the forum know how you get on

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

8068 Pte Harry Plumb would have been a contemporary of my great-grandfather 7918 Pte Peter Cressey who was the subject of this thread i started:

East Yorkshire Regiment - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

Having checked on the holdings of the regimental journal, 'The Snapper' on The Ogilby Muster, the following was found regarding Harry Plumb whilst with the 2nd Battalion at Fyzabad, India:

16Jan07 - awarded 1st Good Conduct Badge

18Apr07 - 2nd Class Certificate of Education

1907 - 2nd Class shot with score of 159

19Oct07 - Promoted to L/Cpl and is a member of E Company

Spring 1908 -1st Class shot with score of 184

27Oct10 - Promoted to Cpl

Dec12-Jan13 - Transferred to the Army Reserve

 

[mrfrank]

I've got the full run of journals for 1907 and just had a look through them as I don't think the Regimental Museum has them all and therefore they're not on the OM.

The February 1907 issue has the full list of names that made up the draft from the 1st battalion at Shorncliffe to the 2nd battalion at Maymyo, Burma.

A Pte H Plum with a regimental number of 8066 [error, and from previous experience, there are quite a number in the journal] is down as a member of this draft.

Left Shorncliffe on morning of 19th December 1906, embarking at Southampton on the SS Rewa arriving at Bombay via Suez on 9th January 1907. Transhipped to the RIMS Hardinge, reaching Rangoon on 20th January 1907. Arrived Maymyo 21st. 

My great-grandfather was also in this draft. 

[Neil Arnott]

Wow that is amazing - thank you so much! I was nowhere near finding any of this out.

 

So (please accept my ignorance!) if he was transferred to the Army Reserve in 1912/13 would that explain why he appears to have not been involved in the fighting in WW1? My understanding is he remained in India as part of the Garrison Battalion - I'm presuming this would mean he was 'holding the fort' as it were, whilst the fighting went on elsewhere? Does this also imply he would have had another 'job' (there's a family tale that he went on to own a tea plantation but I'm sceptical of this!)

And I'd love to know about your great-grandfather - inevitably now wondering if they followed similar or very different paths!

Thanks again

Neil

[Neil Arnott]

13 hours ago, mrfrank said:

8068 Pte Harry Plumb would have been a contemporary of my great-grandfather 7918 Pte Peter Cressey who was the subject of this thread i started:

East Yorkshire Regiment - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

Having checked on the holdings of the regimental journal, 'The Snapper' on The Ogilby Muster, the following was found regarding Harry Plumb whilst with the 2nd Battalion at Fyzabad, India:

16Jan07 - awarded 1st Good Conduct Badge

18Apr07 - 2nd Class Certificate of Education

1907 - 2nd Class shot with score of 159

19Oct07 - Promoted to L/Cpl and is a member of E Company

Spring 1908 -1st Class shot with score of 184

27Oct10 - Promoted to Cpl

Dec12-Jan13 - Transferred to the Army Reserve

 

Have just had a look through the thread about your great grandfather - fascinating. Thank you for pointing me that way!

[Keith_history_buff]

54 minutes ago, Neil Arnott said:

he was transferred to the Army Reserve in 1912/13

He was contractually obliged to serve with the colours from January 1905 to January 1914. The regiment wanted men to finish colour service sooner, and it seems likely there would be a payment to encourage them to do this. 

From the time of his transfer from colour service to the reserve, he was a civilian, but liable to be mobilised in the event of an emergency. This liability continued until January 1917 in principle, by which time he would - in principle - have been "time expired."

On or around 5 August 1914, he would have been mobilised, and would have had to report to the regimental depot. Not all men who were mobilised were in the peak of their health. I think it likely that whilst he was not graded A1 medically, he could be put to use in a Garrison Battalion, hence his return to India in 1916.

This is speculation until such time as you can get his service record, but he may have been mobilised, and as an NCO sent to a newly formed New Army battalion. They were training until 1915. It could be the case that he had no issues with his medical grade until 1915, with the result that a downgrade would prevent him deploying with his battalion, and being reassigned to a Garrison Battalion.

Although a slightly different scenario, I have been researching older soldiers who reenlisted in 1914, many being Boer War veterans. In many instances, they were deployed to France, but in 1915 they were transferred to a Garrison Battalion.