grandfathers medal; malcolm stewart private 7567 I think a piper in the A&S 5th Battalion. The medal has 1914-1915

[malcolm stewart]

The above title has all the details at my disposal.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. You don’t actually state what you would like to find out? Here’s his medal index card for starters. Image ©️ Ancestry You can read about how to interpret it via the Long Long Trail website. The medal you have is the star medal. 

[Allan1892]

Find My Past (a subscription site) hold a medical admissions entry for him. The register records:-

Regiment -- 2/6th 1/6th Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Service No -- 7567

Age -- 24 years

Years in the Army -- 6 years

Full months of service in the field -- 9 months

Reason for admission -- Appendicitis

Date of admission to the 14th Field Ambulance -- 29/12/1916

Date of transfer to the 33 Casualty Clearing Station (based at Bethune) -- 29/12/1916

Edited 15 April by Allan1892
To correct battalion info

[Allan1892]

He was discharged from the Army due to sickness under King's Regulation 392 xvi on the 17th august 1917. He was issued with a Silver War Badge to wear in civilian life, badge number 123980.  His entry in the SWB register shows that he enlisted into the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders on the 15th June 1908. He was still with the 6th Battalion when he was discharged.

[malcolm stewart]

Hi Michelle, I wanted to know why he got a medal. It has the dates 1014-1915 on the front. Where did he serve, He talked of Galipille when I was very young.

Thanks for your prompt reply, your service is amazing. Regards Malcolm Stewart (very junior!)

[Michelle Young]

It’s not a gallantry medal, it’s one of the standard medals awarded for service in the Great War. The card image I posted shows you what he was entitled to.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/ 

He first served in a theatre of war (France) in June 1915

1/6th (Renfrewshire) Battalion
August 1914 : at Paisley. Part of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Brigade in the Highland Division. Moved to Bedford.
15 April 1915 : transferred to 1st Highland Brigade in same Division.
2 May 1915 : landed at Boulogne in France.
12 May 1915 : formation retitled to 152nd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.
12 June 1916 : transferred as Pioneer Battalion to 5th Division.
November 1917 : moved to Italy, but returned to France in April 1918.
5 October 1918 : converted back to infantry and transferred to 153rd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.
2/6th (Renfrewshire) Battalion
Formed at Paisley in September 1914 as a second line battalion.
January 1915 : attached to 2nd A&SH Brigade, 2nd Highland Division. Moved to Falkirk in August 1915 and Angus for the winter.
October 1915 : formation became 193rd Brigade in 64th (2nd Highland) Division.
Was called No 10 Battalion between November 1915 and January 1916.
Moved to Norwich in March 1916, going on to Taverham (April), Norwich (October). Disbanded on 13 March 1918.

[Michelle Young]

The 1/5 did serve at Gallipoli, but his entry to a theatre of war states France, if it had been  Gallipoli, the card would say 2b (Balkans)

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

The 1/5 did serve at Gallipoli, but his entry to a theatre of war states France, if it had been  Gallipoli, the card would say 2b (Balkans)

 

@malcolm stewart

The medal rolls and SWB register (as stated in my earlier posts) both state that he was with the 6th Battalion. I know from my own research that family lore can be wrong / mixed up and you end up in a dead end until you find definitive proof of where the man served and with what Battalion / Regiment.

[david murdoch]

His admission to 14th Field Ambulance with appendicitis is giving him as 1/6th  Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and by the date they were Pioneer Battalion with 5th Division. That ties with the medal rolls.

I can also see William Stewart 7566 next to him - so enlisting at the same time and also 1/6th. However he has no 14/15 Star so went overseas later. 

His date of entry to France is one month after the battalion embarked. 

His discharge came months later than the appendicitis and for unrelated reasons. Going by his pension card he possibly suffered some form of accident. 

Edited 5 April by david murdoch

[TEW]

I know the medical registers can be wrong but it apparently says he had 9 months field service when admitted to FA 29/12/1916.

That makes his arrival in the field late March 1916 which doesn't tally with the MIC.

19 months field service is more likely or something else is going on.

It's not impossible that after arriving in France he served in another theatre and returned there later.

TEW

[david murdoch]

There is a service record for William Stewart. He does not appear to be related (only same surname) and numbers seem to match with names being alphabetically listed. However his record gives some dates of interest as they were renumbered also consecutively. He was from Dundee and Killed in Action 25/10/1918 

He appears to have enlisted in 5th A&SH on 9/6/1916 under a different number and transferred to 1/6 A&SH  7/9/1916 a week after arriving in France. So allocated 7566 then. 

Also it shows when they were renumbered. 

Edited 5 April by david murdoch

[malcolm stewart]

Thanks Guys, it is quite amazing how you work. As a youngster he often told me the stories about Gallipoli. Apparently he was shot but survived. He was a good piper and I suspect that he had an active piping role? I have found his regalia badges and jewel. What I take to be his cap badge is a lion rampant holding a sword. . I'm not sure if this is of importance. He lived in Greenock. Thanks Malcolm Stewart (jnr)

[Michelle Young]

Im confused. (It doesn’t take much) As he’s proved to be 6th Btn, I can’t see how he could have served on Gallipoli? His MIC shows he first went to France.

1/6th (Renfrewshire) Battalion
August 1914 : at Paisley. Part of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Brigade in the Highland Division. Moved to Bedford.
15 April 1915 : transferred to 1st Highland Brigade in same Division.
2 May 1915 : landed at Boulogne in France.
12 May 1915 : formation retitled to 152nd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.
12 June 1916 : transferred as Pioneer Battalion to 5th Division.
November 1917 : moved to Italy, but returned to France in April 1918.
5 October 1918 : converted back to infantry and transferred to 153rd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.

[AndrewSid]

For what its worth i cant find him in the Times casualty lists.

[TEW]

Well, the Gallipoli aspect does seem almost impossible. He may have embellished stories.

Although!!!

The William Stewart that David identified on the same roll only has 6th A&S mentioned but actually served for a week in France while technically with the 5th Bn. Not proof of Gallipoli service I know but demonstrates that not all battalions were listed on A&S rolls.

Stewart's MIC only needs to show his first entry to theatre, in this case France.

Hypothetically he could have reverted to 5th Bn. anytime between June and mid-December 1915 and seen service in Gallipoli. Only his service or pension file would show that not the medal rolls/cards.

I agree that if he was shot in Gallipoli he should be recorded in a casualty list. Unless it was an accident or a minor wound.

Tenuous I know

TEW

 

[AndrewSid]

Whilst I can’t find him in the Times lists it of course doesn’t mean he is not there! The scan quality is poor. Refined searches may help but a manual trawl of the circa 120 daily  lists for the period of time in question is what I’d do if it was my relative. A few hours work at least. 
 

A quick look at the war diary shows it does not name other rank casualties.

Did your relative provide specific details on Gallipoli and his wounding? 
 

Andy

[TEW]

I've tried various searches via TheGenealogist with no results.

Taking the info so far it's not certain he was shot in Gallipoli, France perhaps. In which case there are no lists for 3 months of 1917* and I can't search from May 1918.

*The Scotsman has proved to have some details for these 3 months.

Additionally, it may not have been a wound with the criteria necessary for publication.

Or there's some story telling!

TEW

[malcolm stewart]

Hi Guys, its me again. I have dug into some very old records and found the following. When his son (my father) was born 1914, Malcolm Stewart recorded his occupation as a private in the 5th Battalion of the A &S Highlanders. He lived in Greenock and was probably originally part of the territorials. From other records the 5th did serve in Gallipoli.

[Michelle Young]

Is it feasible that a man who is down to have entered France in June 1915, as per MIC, to have then gone to Gallipoli? 

[AndrewSid]

The 1/5 Battalion left Dunfermline by train on the 31st of May 1915 and subsequently left Devenport on the SS Andania on the 1st of June 1915.  The Battalion arrived in Alexandria on the 15th of June.  They left Alexandria on the 28th of June 1915 towards Gallipoli. Details from their war diary.  Noting FMP has helpfully mixed up the 5th HLI and 5th AS&H war diaries for anyone wanting to look further!

The coincidence here is that his MIC date for entry into France matches perfectly with the disembarkation from the UK of the 5th A&SH.  MIC dates for those heading to the Mediterranean theatre seem to vary from embarkation to disembarkation in either Egypt or Gallipoli from some previous research i did.

As already mentioned the 6th Battalion was already in France by the 1st of June 1915 making him a later draft replacement, albeit by only a month.

Whilst far from conclusive the MIC dates fits perfectly for a 5th Battalion TF man heading for Gallipoli with his Battalion.  All the other medal information contradicts that though?

Could the poster prove more details of the birth document?  Date of registration for example and exact wordings?  He moved from civilian to soldier overnight on the 4th of August 1914 when (along with TF men all over the country) local orders for recall were sent out ordering the entire battalion to parade next morning at 0800 for mobilisation. 

Andy

 

 

[TEW]

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Is it feasible that a man who is down to have entered France in June 1915, as per MIC, to have then gone to Gallipoli? 

I would say yes it is possible. If it was the other way around and his first theatre was 2b then one would expect him to be in another theatre later in the war which would not be recorded in the medal details. It would not be questioned if it was suggested a man was in France in 1917 following a 2b entitlement to a 15 Star

I can easily accept that a man could change battalions on arrival in theatre, that's quite common. So, a man enlisting, training and embarking with the 5th Bn. could transfer to 6th Bn. at an IBD.

Andrew has brought up an unexpected angle with the date of entry. It's either a coincidence or something that needs exploring.

I also agree that past research shows lots of oddities with dates of entry, & theatres when Egypt, Gallipoli are concerned.

I hunted through a number of pages from the medal roll with little luck for service files. As far as the pair roll for the 1/6th men with close numbers is concerned his 15 Star entitlement is unique across 3 pages.

TEW

[Interested]

I'm no expert but IIRC the 14-15 Star was awarded to volunteers, those conscripted didn't receive the Star, only the Victory and War medal.  Perhaps someone else in the family has the other two? 

[TEW]

I had a look at the 14-15 Star Roll G4/B8, there are 30 sheets.

With a Date of Entry 1/6/15 I've tallied up 27 1/5th A&SH men entering theatre 3 (Egypt) and 5 10th A&SH men entering theatre 1 (France).

7567 Malcom Stewart is unique in being the only man in the roll with that date entering France with 6th A&SH. Could that be wrong?

Dairy for 157 Infantry Brigade (5th A&SH) says they were at sea near Crete 15/6/15 and changed course for Alexandria disembarking there 17/6/15. The 1/6/15 date is probably when they were posted to the MEF.

TEW

[AndrewSid]

Thanks TEW.  Im not sure what to think at the moment.

If the poster could reply with any further details and ideally an image of the birth certificate we can perhaps progress.

Andy

[malcolm stewart]

Hi Guys, sorry the undersea cable to South Africa got damaged so my internet is up/down. I will try and get more details. Thanls for the incredible work you are doing. Regards Malcolm Stewart