Cashiering -- what actually happened?

[FrancesH]

As mentioned in previous threads, I am exploring the experiences of officers charged with 'gross indecency' (i.e. homosexuality) during the war, particularly in 1916. I have just found a reference in 'Raymond Asquith: Life and Letters' (ed. John Joliffe) which made me realise I don't actually know what the actual procedure of cashiering involved. Asquith acted as 'Prisoner's Friend' in the court martial of Lieutenant Guy Nugent of the Grenadier Guards in September 1916. Nugent was found guilty and sentenced to cashiering and one year's imprisonment. On p.295 Asquith states that Nugent's 'buttons were cut off in the Orderly Room'.

Presumably this was because the buttons featured his regiment's badge? Would he also have lost his cap badge? Did anything else happen, such as the confiscation of his sword? Do any GWF members know of any specific account of what the procedure was when an officer was cashiered?

PS A note to anyone interested specifically in Nugent: Asquith does not mention him by name but his involvement as Prisoner's Friend is confirmed in Nugent's service file. The King remitted the one year's imprisonment, the only time when the monarch intervened in the sentences given to officers in 1916.

 

 

[FrancesH]

Of course there is a previous thread relating to this -- there always is!

One of the replies in this thread quotes a contemporary source describing the procedure and it does sound as though the badges of rank were torn off. I would still be very grateful if anyone knows of any other accounts, or more detail?

[seaJane]

Don't know anything to your exact requirement, but reminds me of this from Kipling;

    "They’ve taken of his buttons off an’ cut his stripes away,
      An’ they're hangin’ Danny Deever in the mornin’." 

I think King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions for 1911 or 1913 are available online, so it may be worth searching that?

sJ

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/04/2024 at 17:34, FrancesH said:

Of course there is a previous thread relating to this -- there always is!

One of the replies in this thread quotes a contemporary source describing the procedure and it does sound as though the badges of rank were torn off. I would still be very grateful if anyone knows of any other accounts, or more detail?

There’s this one as well Frances, I’m not sure if you’d forgotten this one: 

 

[FrancesH]

Hi Frogsmile, thank you for that! I am blushing of course BUT in that thread you say that the removal of epaulettes etc was a Hollywood invention, yet Asquith actually witnessed the button snipping?

PS next time I have a question I should probably just DM you and say 'when was the last time I asked you about this?'

8 hours ago, seaJane said:

Don't know anything to your exact requirement, but reminds me of this from Kipling;

    "They’ve taken of his buttons off an’ cut his stripes away,
      An’ they're hangin’ Danny Deever in the mornin’." 

I think King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions for 1911 or 1913 are available online, so it may be worth searching that?

sJ

Thank you Seajane! Deever was a ranker if memory serves, but clearly Kipling thought/knew there was a procedure like this ...

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, FrancesH said:

Hi Frogsmile, thank you for that! I am blushing of course BUT in that thread you say that the removal of epaulettes etc was a Hollywood invention, yet Asquith actually witnessed the button snipping?

PS next time I have a question I should probably just DM you and say 'when was the last time I asked you about this?'

Thank you Seajane! Deever was a ranker if memory serves, but clearly Kipling thought/knew there was a procedure like this ...

Hello Frances, what Asquith mentions seems genuine I agree and there’s no doubt that something similar occurred in the 18th century that was described as ‘drumming out’ or being ‘drummed out’ [of the regiment], which was also a ritualised form of public humiliation as a punishment that all soldiers present were to witness.

It was part of a concept, and whole gamut of public punishments, or degradations of that nature that were originally a common part of life, such as a period in the stocks, public flogging, hanging or shooting by firing squad, field punishment (periods tied to a stake or wheel).

At a time when all that many men had was their honour, such rituals were intended to create a spectacle that would resonate with the viewer and remind him of the price he might pay have to pay for a serious transgression.

The thing I would say though is that if that which Asquith mentions was a regular and ordained procedure then it would I think be published as a process in regulations and there would be much more than just his account of it, just as there are many accounts of soldiers executions.  We cannot find anything similar for a reason it seems to me.

Edited 7 April by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

As always you found some fantastic pictures! It certainly seems to have been much more a 'thing' in the French army.

I will keep poking away at this point, as I thought it was interesting that although Asquith is writing to his wife, not a fellow serviceman, he mentions the buttons detail as something he evidently expects her to  know what he's talking about. I attach a copy of the quote just for reference ...

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

As always you found some fantastic pictures! It certainly seems to have been much more a 'thing' in the French army.

I will keep poking away at this point, as I thought it was interesting that although Asquith is writing to his wife, not a fellow serviceman, he mentions the buttons detail as something he evidently expects her to  know what he's talking about. I attach a copy of the quote just for reference ...

I didn’t doubt you for a moment, but I think it was probably an affectation by a particular unit, or individual commanding officer because it conflicts with the fundamental and strictly observed premise that the uniform and it’s insignia belongs (is strictly the property of) the individual officer who paid for it, unlike the soldier, for whom it is public property.  That is why officers who were killed had their uniforms sent home to their families.  The fact that there are not more instances mentioned is I believe telling.

Your inquiry has brought to mind another conundrum though and that is what happened to the uniforms and insignia of the very few officers shot by firing squad.  I find myself wondering if they were given alternative clothing for the execution, because there would surely have been some concern by the authorities about the optics of soldiers shooting officers whilst wearing officers uniform and rank.  I’m not sure if they were reduced to the ranks first, which would’ve solved the problem.

Edited 7 April by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

Thank you, that's an excellent point! I did know of course that the uniforms belonged to the officers concerned but had not considered the significance of that. 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

Thank you, that's an excellent point! I did know of course that the uniforms belonged to the officers concerned but had not considered the significance of that. 

I think it certainly used to be a thing to strip an officer of his insignia after conviction and that is depicted in the uppermost image of an officer in scarlet coatee above going through that humiliation.

I suspect that it was still in older WW1 officers conscious memory and perhaps existed still when some started their service.  There is some suggestion that it was discontinued before the Boer War but without any specific evidence.  That would make sense though as there had been a number of reforms to the Army Act covering disciplinary procedures, including the phased abolition of flogging, which was eventually replaced with Field Punishment Number 1.  I imagine that the degradation ritual was perhaps abolished in a similar way.

Maybe you could try inquiring with the National Army Museum.  I would suggest the Military Provost Staff Corps and Royal Military Police, but the former in particular has taken little trouble to record its history and the RMP is more focused on policing than punishment.  Another body that might know something is the Army Legal Service, but like the Provost Staff (who provided warders) I’m not sure how much attention they’ve paid to their history.

Edited 7 April by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

Thank you, I will try the National Army Museum and report back. They were very helpful over a completely unrelated enquiry before.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

Thank you, I will try the National Army Museum and report back. They were very helpful over a completely unrelated enquiry before.

I will be very interested to learn anything you discover, but I’m pessimistic as my own experiences have not been good and on one occasion I was referred by them (bizarrely) to Frogsmile “who posted in the Victorian Wars Forum” (that incident was over a decade ago though).  It depends very much on the prejudices and enthusiasm of the individual with whom you make contact. 

Edited 7 April by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

Thank you, that's an excellent point! I did know of course that the uniforms belonged to the officers concerned but had not considered the significance of that. 

Perhaps the cut off buttons and the uniform from which they were removed were sent home to his family, which would meet the principles of ownership outlined.

Certainly I know it is the practice nowadays to remove the insignia of an officer convicted and dismissed the service.  However, it’s done in a matter of fact rather than ritually humiliating way. 

[rolt968]

You might like to look at about 22.20 in the video which I posted a link to in this thread (I make no claims whatsoever to the accuracy of this!) :

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309898-serial-enlistment-again-how-i-first-learned-about-it-but-would-it-have-worked/#comment-3283356

Also (with apologies) the cartoon attached to "Sam Drummed Out"

https://www.seiyaku.com/lit/monologues/040.html

Doesn't (inevitably) Lance Corporal Jones talk about someone being stripped of his insignia in an episode of Dad's Army?

RM

Edited 8 April by rolt968

[rolt968]

There was a Napoleonic invasion scare somewhere and the fencibles? were turned out. One man didn't turn out and went and hid. After it was found out that there was nothing to the scare the runaway was found and stripped of his insignia before the regiment. I have no idea where I remember it from! The scare itself (at least) turns up in one of Thomas Hardy's books.

RM

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, rolt968 said:

There was a Napoleonic invasion scare somewhere and the fencibles? were turned out. One man didn't turn out and went and hid. After it was found out that there was nothing to the scare the runaway was found and stripped of his insignia before the regiment. I have no idea where I remember it from! The scare itself (at least) turns up in one of Thomas Hardy's books.

RM

 

There’s no doubt that the degradation ritual had existed in the 18th and 19th century, as mentioned and illustrated above, and it probably had some resonance still in the minds of older officers who might recall it from their youth, but so far there’s only little evidence at all that it still had any contemporary sanction between 1914-1918. 

Edited 8 April by FROGSMILE