Repatriation

[Vollee]

Pte A. C. Jones, 4th SAIR, was captured on 24 March 1918 in Bouchavesnes and, after a brief spell in Munster II, spent the remainder of the war in Doeberitz. His record notes he was repatriated and arrived in Hull, ex SS Khyber, on 14 January 1919. This made me wonder:

a) How did POWs hear that the war was over, generally? I have seen accounts of some not even knowing until 1919.

b) I know that many, like Jones, did not get back to the UK until 1919, so did life improve any in the months they waited to return? I imagine many German officers and troops wanted to get home as soon as they could, many would have been angry and disillusioned and life would have been difficult for the general population. On the other hand many of the POWs may have felt they had an 'ax to grind'.

c) I presume they were taken by train to a port from whence they would travel by ship back to the UK. But there must have been a lot of logistics to be managed.

Any references that I might pursue or insights into this period, 11 November 1918 to repatriation in 1919, would be much appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Vollee said:

Pte A. C. Jones, 4th SAIR, was captured on 24 March 1918 in Bouchavesnes and, after a brief spell in Munster II, spent the remainder of the war in Doeberitz. His record notes he was repatriated and arrived in Hull, ex SS Khyber, on 14 January 1919. This made me wonder:

a) How did POWs hear that the war was over, generally? I have seen accounts of some not even knowing until 1919.

b) I know that many, like Jones, did not get back to the UK until 1919, so did life improve any in the months they waited to return? I imagine many German officers and troops wanted to get home as soon as they could, many would have been angry and disillusioned and life would have been difficult for the general population. On the other hand many of the POWs may have felt they had an 'ax to grind'.

c) I presume they were taken by train to a port from whence they would travel by ship back to the UK. But there must have been a lot of logistics to be managed.

Any references that I might pursue or insights into this period, 11 November 1918 to repatriation in 1919, would be much appreciated.

You ask some interesting questions regarding a very difficult time for the British Armies in France, including their commonly excellent Commonwealth Dominion forces that were such a vital, integral part.  From what I can gather I’d say as follows in answer:

a.  I think that news of the war’s end varied significantly, and depended a lot on the situation of individual soldiers.  Some were sick in camp hospitals, some overworked in mines and many were weakened by hunger due to the limited food supplies available to, and provided by, the German PW authorities.  It is too easy a trope to say that this was through cruelty, as although there were some cases of ill treatment of prisoners (just as there were in some cases by British personnel on German PW), the biggest problem was that Germany was itself starving due to years of war and an increasingly effective Naval blockade of its ports by the Royal Navy and its allies.  So acute was the situation that special priority for food was given to the assaulting German troops over and above their civilian population, many of whom were starving.  In such a situation it was inevitable that PW would suffer hardship too.  Contemporary comments about e.g. “unspeakable meats” (horse and dog) provided to prisoners are ridiculous given differences in culture in continental Europe, and the dire limitations on food that prevailed at the time.  That then was the backdrop.

Apparently the captured PW were, once in Germany, assigned and recorded administratively to a central camp that was usually associated with the home region of the military formation that had captured the prisoners.  The PW were then often dispersed to accommodation in satellite camps from the main camp, where they were frequently put to manual labour.  Some camps and jobs were worse than others.

As I understand it from past reading some PW learned the war was over from their guard’s celebratory behaviour, others from newspapers, and some verbally, whereas others were deliberately kept entirely in the dark.  Once learned by one man, or group, the word soon spread though, as is human nature, whether it be by whispers, or more overt communication.  There were apparently also communications received via priests and even the International Red Cross, which organisation acted as a go-between for both belligerents throughout the war.

b.  There are quite a number of highly evocative and informative PW personal accounts that have survived that you might find illuminating reading (some have been recorded by the Imperial War Museum in London for listening).  Here are some of the most easily accessible sources:

1. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-the-german-spring-offensive#:~:text=Now when Jerry's offensive on,through us like a scythe.&text=21%2C000 British prisoners were taken,of the German Spring Offensive.

2. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-prisoners-of-war

3. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/british-prisoner-of-war-deaths-a-case-study-from-one-pow-camp/

4. https://www.worldwar1luton.com/blog-entry/prisoners-war-1918

5. https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/stories/george-bell-prisoner-war

6. https://cdnhistorybits.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/canadian-pows-ww1/

7. https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/first-world-war/scottish-prisoners-of-war-1914-1918

c.  As regards repatriation after the armistice, there was usually movement organised by train followed by ship, but some men were so weak from malnutrition that they had to spend some time in convalescence until they had recovered sufficiently for the long journey.  Again some aspects were organised through the International Red Cross, including some through Holland, but a particularly large scale and complex scheme was organised via a special arrangement with Denmark: https://www.thedanishscheme.co.uk/Articles/Dissertation.pdf

I imagine that South Africans and others from overseas were first repatriated to Britain before onwards passage home to South Africa.

The forum has a number of interesting threads involving the repatriation of PW:

1. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/301631-repatriation/

2. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/256068-pow-repatriation-at-the-end-of-the-war/

3. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/176222-pows-and-repatriation/

Happy reading!

Edited 5 April by FROGSMILE

[Vollee]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

You ask some interesting questions regarding a very difficult time for the British Armies in France, including their commonly excellent Commonwealth Dominion forces that were such a vital, integral part.  From what I can gather I’d say as follows in answer:

a.  I think that news of the wars end varied significantly, and depended a lot on the situation of individual soldiers.  Some were sick in camp hospitals, some overworked in mines and many were weakened by hunger due to the limited food supplies available to, and provided by, the German PW authorities.  It is too easy a trope to say that this was through cruelty, as although there were some cases of ill treatment of prisoners (just as there were in some cases by British personnel on German PW), the biggest problem was that Germany was itself starving due to years of war and an increasingly effective Naval blockade of its ports by the Royal Navy and its allies.  So acute was the situation that special priority for food was given to the assaulting German troops over and above their civilian population, many of whom were starving.  In such a situation it was inevitable that PW would suffer hardship too.  Contemporary comments about e.g. “unspeakable meats” (horse and dog) provided to prisoners are ridiculous given differences in culture in continental Europe, and the dire limitations on food that prevailed at the time.  That then was the backdrop.

Apparently the captured PW were, once in Germany, assigned and recorded administratively to a central camp that was usually associated with the home region of the military formation that had captured the prisoners.  The PW were then often dispersed to accommodation in satellite camps from the main camp, where they were frequently put to manual labour.  Some camps and jobs were worse than others.

As I understand it from past reading some PW learned the war was over from their guard’s celebratory behaviour, others from newspapers, and some verbally, whereas others were deliberately kept entirely in the dark.  Once learned by one man, or group, the word soon spread though, as is human nature, whether it be by whisper, or more overt communication.  There were apparently also communications received via priests and even the International Red Cross, which organisation acted as a go-between for both belligerents throughout the war.

b.  There are quite a number of highly evocative and informative PW personal accounts that have survived that you might find illuminating reading (some have been recorded by the Imperial War Museum in London for listening).  Here are some of the most easily accessible sources:

1. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-the-german-spring-offensive#:~:text=Now when Jerry's offensive on,through us like a scythe.&text=21%2C000 British prisoners were taken,of the German Spring Offensive.

2. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-prisoners-of-war

3. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/british-prisoner-of-war-deaths-a-case-study-from-one-pow-camp/

4. https://www.worldwar1luton.com/blog-entry/prisoners-war-1918

5. https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/stories/george-bell-prisoner-war

6. https://cdnhistorybits.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/canadian-pows-ww1/

7. https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/first-world-war/scottish-prisoners-of-war-1914-1918

c.  As regards repatriation after the armistice, there was usually movement organised by train followed by ship, but some men were so weak from malnutrition that they had to spend some time in convalescence until they had recovered sufficiently for the long journey.  Again some aspects were organised through the International Red Cross, including some through Holland, but a particularly large scale and complex scheme was organised via a special arrangement with Denmark: https://www.thedanishscheme.co.uk/Articles/Dissertation.pdf

I imagine that South Africans and others were first repatriated to Britain before onwards passage home to South Africa.

The forum has a number of interesting threads involving the repatriation of PW:

1. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/301631-repatriation/

2. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/256068-pow-repatriation-at-the-end-of-the-war/

3. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/176222-pows-and-repatriation/

Happy reading!

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

You ask some interesting questions regarding a very difficult time for the British Armies in France, including their commonly excellent Commonwealth Dominion forces that were such a vital, integral part.  From what I can gather I’d say as follows in answer:

a.  I think that news of the wars end varied significantly, and depended a lot on the situation of individual soldiers.  Some were sick in camp hospitals, some overworked in mines and many were weakened by hunger due to the limited food supplies available to, and provided by, the German PW authorities.  It is too easy a trope to say that this was through cruelty, as although there were some cases of ill treatment of prisoners (just as there were in some cases by British personnel on German PW), the biggest problem was that Germany was itself starving due to years of war and an increasingly effective Naval blockade of its ports by the Royal Navy and its allies.  So acute was the situation that special priority for food was given to the assaulting German troops over and above their civilian population, many of whom were starving.  In such a situation it was inevitable that PW would suffer hardship too.  Contemporary comments about e.g. “unspeakable meats” (horse and dog) provided to prisoners are ridiculous given differences in culture in continental Europe, and the dire limitations on food that prevailed at the time.  That then was the backdrop.

Apparently the captured PW were, once in Germany, assigned and recorded administratively to a central camp that was usually associated with the home region of the military formation that had captured the prisoners.  The PW were then often dispersed to accommodation in satellite camps from the main camp, where they were frequently put to manual labour.  Some camps and jobs were worse than others.

As I understand it from past reading some PW learned the war was over from their guard’s celebratory behaviour, others from newspapers, and some verbally, whereas others were deliberately kept entirely in the dark.  Once learned by one man, or group, the word soon spread though, as is human nature, whether it be by whisper, or more overt communication.  There were apparently also communications received via priests and even the International Red Cross, which organisation acted as a go-between for both belligerents throughout the war.

b.  There are quite a number of highly evocative and informative PW personal accounts that have survived that you might find illuminating reading (some have been recorded by the Imperial War Museum in London for listening).  Here are some of the most easily accessible sources:

1. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-the-german-spring-offensive#:~:text=Now when Jerry's offensive on,through us like a scythe.&text=21%2C000 British prisoners were taken,of the German Spring Offensive.

2. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-prisoners-of-war

3. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/british-prisoner-of-war-deaths-a-case-study-from-one-pow-camp/

4. https://www.worldwar1luton.com/blog-entry/prisoners-war-1918

5. https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/stories/george-bell-prisoner-war

6. https://cdnhistorybits.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/canadian-pows-ww1/

7. https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/first-world-war/scottish-prisoners-of-war-1914-1918

c.  As regards repatriation after the armistice, there was usually movement organised by train followed by ship, but some men were so weak from malnutrition that they had to spend some time in convalescence until they had recovered sufficiently for the long journey.  Again some aspects were organised through the International Red Cross, including some through Holland, but a particularly large scale and complex scheme was organised via a special arrangement with Denmark: https://www.thedanishscheme.co.uk/Articles/Dissertation.pdf

I imagine that South Africans and others were first repatriated to Britain before onwards passage home to South Africa.

The forum has a number of interesting threads involving the repatriation of PW:

1. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/301631-repatriation/

2. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/256068-pow-repatriation-at-the-end-of-the-war/

3. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/176222-pows-and-repatriation/

Happy reading!

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

You ask some interesting questions regarding a very difficult time for the British Armies in France, including their commonly excellent Commonwealth Dominion forces that were such a vital, integral part.  From what I can gather I’d say as follows in answer:

a.  I think that news of the wars end varied significantly, and depended a lot on the situation of individual soldiers.  Some were sick in camp hospitals, some overworked in mines and many were weakened by hunger due to the limited food supplies available to, and provided by, the German PW authorities.  It is too easy a trope to say that this was through cruelty, as although there were some cases of ill treatment of prisoners (just as there were in some cases by British personnel on German PW), the biggest problem was that Germany was itself starving due to years of war and an increasingly effective Naval blockade of its ports by the Royal Navy and its allies.  So acute was the situation that special priority for food was given to the assaulting German troops over and above their civilian population, many of whom were starving.  In such a situation it was inevitable that PW would suffer hardship too.  Contemporary comments about e.g. “unspeakable meats” (horse and dog) provided to prisoners are ridiculous given differences in culture in continental Europe, and the dire limitations on food that prevailed at the time.  That then was the backdrop.

Apparently the captured PW were, once in Germany, assigned and recorded administratively to a central camp that was usually associated with the home region of the military formation that had captured the prisoners.  The PW were then often dispersed to accommodation in satellite camps from the main camp, where they were frequently put to manual labour.  Some camps and jobs were worse than others.

As I understand it from past reading some PW learned the war was over from their guard’s celebratory behaviour, others from newspapers, and some verbally, whereas others were deliberately kept entirely in the dark.  Once learned by one man, or group, the word soon spread though, as is human nature, whether it be by whisper, or more overt communication.  There were apparently also communications received via priests and even the International Red Cross, which organisation acted as a go-between for both belligerents throughout the war.

b.  There are quite a number of highly evocative and informative PW personal accounts that have survived that you might find illuminating reading (some have been recorded by the Imperial War Museum in London for listening).  Here are some of the most easily accessible sources:

1. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-the-german-spring-offensive#:~:text=Now when Jerry's offensive on,through us like a scythe.&text=21%2C000 British prisoners were taken,of the German Spring Offensive.

2. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-prisoners-of-war

3. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/british-prisoner-of-war-deaths-a-case-study-from-one-pow-camp/

4. https://www.worldwar1luton.com/blog-entry/prisoners-war-1918

5. https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/stories/george-bell-prisoner-war

6. https://cdnhistorybits.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/canadian-pows-ww1/

7. https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/first-world-war/scottish-prisoners-of-war-1914-1918

c.  As regards repatriation after the armistice, there was usually movement organised by train followed by ship, but some men were so weak from malnutrition that they had to spend some time in convalescence until they had recovered sufficiently for the long journey.  Again some aspects were organised through the International Red Cross, including some through Holland, but a particularly large scale and complex scheme was organised via a special arrangement with Denmark: https://www.thedanishscheme.co.uk/Articles/Dissertation.pdf

I imagine that South Africans and others were first repatriated to Britain before onwards passage home to South Africa.

The forum has a number of interesting threads involving the repatriation of PW:

1. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/301631-repatriation/

2. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/256068-pow-repatriation-at-the-end-of-the-war/

3. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/176222-pows-and-repatriation/

Happy reading!

Many, many thanks for you reply to my questions, the links and the photographs which are most evocative.  I will happily read the references.

[Swinesheadvillage]

On 05/04/2024 at 10:02, Vollee said:

Any references that I might pursue

Hi

You may like to have a look at the following dissertation. Although primarily addressing the Danish aspect of the repatriation, it also covers many general areas and issues faced. I found it a fascinating read.

https://www.thedanishscheme.co.uk/Articles/Dissertation.pdf

Looking at the appendices, since the SS Kyber isn't mentioned as a ship using a Danish port, I assume Pte Jones embarked at Rotterdam.

Hope it helps

Kind Regards

 

Derek

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

Hi

You may like to have a look at the following dissertation. Although primarily addressing the Danish aspect of the repatriation, it also covers many general areas and issues faced. I found it a fascinating read.

https://www.thedanishscheme.co.uk/Articles/Dissertation.pdf

Looking at the appendices, since the SS Kyber isn't mentioned as a ship using a Danish port, I assume Pte Jones embarked at Rotterdam.

Hope it helps

Kind Regards

 

Derek

I posted that above already Derek.  I too thought it a good read.

[Swinesheadvillage]

My apologies FS. Should have checked and should have known you would not miss it. D

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Swinesheadvillage said:

My apologies FS. Should have checked and should have known you would not miss it. D

No problem.  It was an extraordinary effort by Denmark and one of the things that struck me in general was the need to get men well enough to travel at all. 

[Vollee]

4 hours ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

Hi

You may like to have a look at the following dissertation. Although primarily addressing the Danish aspect of the repatriation, it also covers many general areas and issues faced. I found it a fascinating read.

https://www.thedanishscheme.co.uk/Articles/Dissertation.pdf

Looking at the appendices, since the SS Kyber isn't mentioned as a ship using a Danish port, I assume Pte Jones embarked at Rotterdam.

Hope it helps

Kind Regards

 

Derek

Many thanks for that Derek. I shall most certainly read the link.