Turkish M1890 Bayonet. Identify Markings Please.

[GWF1967]

Hi,

 I have what I believe to be a Turkish M1890 Bayonet with a stitched leather “scabbard”. The bayonet is 378mm overall; blade length is 250mm. - could someone interpret the various markings for me please. 

 

 

 

Edited 3 April by GWF1967

[shippingsteel]

Well it was once a beautiful Ottoman M1890 sword bayonet, before it was horribly abused (and shortened).!

Made by JP Sauer & Sohn of Suhl, Germany and dated 1313/1895 it would have been paired with the newly made M1893 rifles for Turkey.

It is serial numbered 133,000 on the crossguard and has the "swirly drawing" Toughra of the Sultan on the pommel. All the rest of the stamps are Inspection markings that were applied during manufacture.

Cheers,  SS

PS. By birthright it should truly look like the ones in the photo below ... 

[GWF1967]

49 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Well it was once a beautiful Ottoman M1890 sword bayonet, before it was horribly abused (and shortened).!

Made by JP Sauer & Sohn of Suhl, Germany and dated 1313/1895 it would have been paired with the newly made M1893 rifles for Turkey.

It is serial numbered 133,000 on the crossguard and has the "swirly drawing" Toughra of the Sultan on the pommel. All the rest of the stamps are Inspection markings that were applied during manufacture.

Cheers,  SS

PS. By birthright it should truly look like the ones in the photo below ... 

 

 

Many thanks for taking the time to look at my ugly duckling. 

[AndyBsk]

Same opinion should be M1893 bayonet made in 1895 by Sauer Suhl.

[shippingsteel]

No Andy, there was no M1893 bayonet for Turkey. When they bought out the M1893 rifle they decided to retain the existing style M1890 bayonet for the new rifle. The only way to tell the difference is in the dates, with the new batch of bayonets dated either 1894 or 1895.

This example as it is shown now is in the generic "Turked M1935" pattern which is the collector term for what came out of the Turkish programme of standardisation undertaken in the 1930's.

Cheers,  SS 

[Chasemuseum]

Not a true Turked M1935 as this process should have seen the Toughra of the Sultan completely ground off.

Given the damage to the Toughra I think it is a m35 that has gone through the state arsenals but cannot be 100% sure.

[AndyBsk]

I known what You mean, in case the piece was serialed to exact rifle M1893 as made evidently 1895 its probably not that bad designation, but You are probably right the model was named as M1890. And with the 1935 standardisation i would disagree on this at the same period, firstly there is intact hook , secondly there is old arabic digits and all origin early markings Thougra, when the shortage of blade was done is questionable but certainly prior 1928, as since this time was used new arabic digits typical for western Europe.

Edited 5 April by AndyBsk

[M1890 ottoman]

Guys just to make things clear, shortened M1890 bayonets (with the shortened original leather scabbard) were very common during the great war. 

Edited 6 April by M1890 ottoman

[GWF1967]

On 05/04/2024 at 07:34, AndyBsk said:

I known what You mean, in case the piece was serialed to exact rifle M1893 as made evidently 1895 its probably not that bad designation, but You are probably right the model was named as M1890. And with the 1935 standardisation i would disagree on this at the same period, firstly there is intact hook , secondly there is old arabic digits and all origin early markings Thougra, when the shortage of blade was done is questionable but certainly prior 1928, as since this time was used new arabic digits typical for western Europe.

Many thanks. I had noticed that most of the examples I could find online had been renumbered with Arabic digits.   

 

1 hour ago, M1890 ottoman said:

Guys just to make things clear, shortened M1890 bayonets (with the shortened original leather scabbard) were very common during the great war. 

Many thanks for your post. 

[AndyBsk]

There are M1913 bayonets which were already 250mm blade lenght, question remains the presented picture is of this or a shortened M90 bayonets?

[shippingsteel]

4 hours ago, M1890 ottoman said:

Guys just to make things clear, shortened M1890 bayonets (with the shortened original leather scabbard) were very common during the great war. 

That is a very interesting photo. I see it is from the IWM, do you happen to have a Catalogue number or a description of the image. Hopefully we can track it down and we might be able to get a better resolution photo to inspect better.

Yes as Andy said there was the M1913 short bayonet which looks VERY similar at a distance, both with upturned quillon and extended muzzle ring to attach to the same rifles. The main difference is in the pommel shape and the broadness of the blade. These were rough made locally in Istanbul as opposed to all the other bayonets which came in from German manufacturers. See photo of M1913 below.

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

Sorry I just remembered that I could use Google Lens to locate the photo for me.! So anyway here is the link to the IWM site. Taken by official German photographer, Catalogue number Q86506 and dated 1917.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205330530

Cheers,  SS

Edited 6 April by shippingsteel
Slightly better resolution image from IWM

[shippingsteel]

Well after close inspection I am confident that they are M1893 Turkish Mauser rifles.! 

As for the bayonets well after VERY close inspection (under max Zoom) I have to honestly say they DO look to be shortened M1890 bayonets.! The blades are broad enough to match the pommel, while the pommels appear to have the symmetrical shape timber grips, as opposed to the tapered shape on the M1913 bayonets.

So this is all new to me, as I previously had no clue that the Turks might have been cutting down their German bayonets actually DURING WW1. Very interesting information indeed. 

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

Looking for some more supporting evidence on the existence of cutdown M1890 bayonets and found this image of Turkish troops obviously in the trenches. Mixture of long and short bayonets, the long ones are definitely M1890 while at least one of the short ones is I believe an M1913. Plenty of room for discussion here though. 

Cheers,  SS

Source. http://turkeyswar.com/

[M1890 ottoman]

 

23 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Looking for some more supporting evidence on the existence of cutdown M1890 bayonets and found this image of Turkish troops obviously in the trenches. Mixture of long and short bayonets, the long ones are definitely M1890 while at least one of the short ones is I believe an M1913. Plenty of room for discussion here though. 

Cheers,  SS

Source. http://turkeyswar.com/

To be frank I have that exact picture inside my closet for a few years now 😂

Fahreddin pasha and one of his officer's sitting on with one of those M1913s on a cliff. this is apparently an shortened M1890 with its original leather scabbard shortened with it. But the red collar gives away that this photo was taken around the war of independence.

[shippingsteel]

Do you know if anyone has documented the shortened M1890 bayonet.? I am surprised if there is photographic evidence that a dodgy "collector term" has not yet been applied.! Perhaps we should coin a new one right now - let it be the M1890/15 in memory of Canakkale. 

Probably the existence of the known M1913 short bayonet has been enough to cover all the shortened bayonets under the one umbrella. And the later conversions in the 1930's muddied the waters even more.

Cheers,  SS

Edited 7 April by shippingsteel

[M1890 ottoman]

Totally agree with you. It shell be it the M1890/15. Its unlikely that they are documented it like the ersatz , taking Trajan's views on the topic might be helpful due to his knowledge about variations.

Speaking of muddy, relooking at the officer with wallpaper on the back. Saying that it wasn't put together between other models , it must be a M1890 (rather than a 1903) if they haven't shortened its frog stud. Lets Rather say its light reflection instead of the ball on the tip of end piece. Next on to The second from last bayonet on the photo from the trench. Is apparently a shortened example hidding behind the long M1890s and M1913s.

 

Edited 8 April by M1890 ottoman

[shippingsteel]

9 hours ago, M1890 ottoman said:

The second from last bayonet on the photo from the trench. Is apparently a shortened example hiding behind the long M1890s and M1913s.

Yes I thought the same with the clear view of the pommel identifying it as a shortened M1890. The other short bayonets in that photo appear to be the M1913 as you can make out the narrow fuller shape which doesn't extend through the tip of the blade.

Cheers,  SS 

[MikeyH]

13 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Do you know if anyone has documented the shortened M1890 bayonet.? I am surprised if there is photographic evidence that a dodgy "collector term" has not yet been applied.! Perhaps we should coin a new one right now - let it be the M1890/15 in memory of Canakkale. 

Probably the existence of the known M1913 short bayonet has been enough to cover all the shortened bayonets under the one umbrella. And the later conversions in the 1930's muddied the waters even more.

Cheers,  SS

SS,

I have a short M1890, this came via. a GWF member a few years ago.  It was a Great War 'bring back' (Mesopotamia 1918) and had been in the family concerned since that time.  So a fairly clear provenance.

Regards,

Mike.

Edited 8 April by MikeyH

[shippingsteel]

Thanks Mike that is good to know. Does it have the same markings as the one in the OP ... or any differences that you can see.?

Cheers,  SS 

[MikeyH]

19 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Thanks Mike that is good to know. Does it have the same markings as the one in the OP ... or any differences that you can see.?

Cheers,  SS 

SS,

All markings exactly as the OP, on my scabbard the locket and chape are intact, although one staple is missing, crescent stamp to rear of both locket and chape.  Serial number is higher, my 'translation' is 136909.

Mike.

Edited 8 April by MikeyH

[shippingsteel]

Right so yours was also made for the M1893 rifle originally. Interesting stuff, thanks again for the info Mike.

Cheers,  SS 

[M1890 ottoman]

2 hours ago, MikeyH said:

SS,

I have a short M1890, this came via. a GWF member a few years ago.  It was a Great War 'bring back' (Mesopotamia 1918) and had been in the family concerned since that time.  So a fairly clear provenance.

Regards,

Mike.

Thats great to hear mike , Its very cool that GWF members do business too, I'd love to do that sometime in the future. 

Thanks for the clearing information.

Gathering things up , From now on the M1890/15 although we still don't know when and how it was converted yet (field or factory). Its likely it was due to the trench warfare of Gallipoli. The M1890/15 existed during the later years of the Great war, had a shortened leather scabbard with the locket , chape and all its stamps intact. 

Edited 8 April by M1890 ottoman

[GWF1967]

On 08/04/2024 at 12:01, MikeyH said:

SS,

I have a short M1890, this came via. a GWF member a few years ago.  It was a Great War 'bring back' (Mesopotamia 1918) and had been in the family concerned since that time.  So a fairly clear provenance.

Regards,

Mike.

Many thanks.  My example came with  second hand 'bring back' attribution. 

[trajan]

I would simply add that a shortened Turkish bayonet without an AS.FA marking is more than likely to have been so treated before the establishment of that organisation in 1921. That said, from what I know, the shortened so-called M.1935 series are more likely to be after 1936 at the earliest, when the Kirikale ‘Gun and Artillery Factory’ was established, with the creation of the 'Turk-Mauser' rifle starting 1938 or so. The Turkish army was still using unshortened 98/05 bayonets into the 1940's. Happy to be corrected on all points, of course!

Edited 11 April by trajan