Matt585 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April Hi my great grandad was in the north staffs 2/5 regiment, I have his history (Bertram Lockett), I’ve now come across a picture of his brother Harry Lockett born 1900 Hanley, in military uniform but cannot find anything about him, his dad was Thomas Lockett, mum Elizabeth Lockett, unfortunately all the people in my family don’t have a clue, can anyone help finding more Info on him?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 3 April Admin Share Posted 3 April Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, there’s nothing on the photo to identify a regiment. Did he have any middle names, was Harry a variant of Henry? Was Harry even his middle name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) 45 minutes ago, Matt585 said: Harry Lockett born 1900 Hanley, in military uniform but cannot find anything about him, his dad was Thomas Lockett, mum Elizabeth Lockett, Welcome to GWF There was a Harry James LOCKETT, 18786, King's Shropshire Light Infantry, with parents Thomas & Elizabeth LOCKETT of Lilac Cottage, Blackbrook Maer and also Bank House, Maer Heath nr Newcastle, Staffs https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/801108/harry-james-lockett Pension records also at WFA/Fold3 ??? - do the addresses help? M Edit: Elizabeth LOCKETT appears to have died c.30/4/36 when her husband took over the pension - unfortunately the pension award file was deliberately destroyed 1.8.66 = those dates might perhaps help with matching genealogy. Edited 3 April by Matlock1418 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt585 Posted 3 April Author Share Posted 3 April Hi guys, I have found that the parents address was 27 Clive street Hanley, unfortunately I have no idea about middle names 🤷🏻♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) 11 minutes ago, Matt585 said: Hanley Would likely be worth looking at the 1901, 1911 and 1921 Censuses And at 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists M Edited 3 April by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) 1 hour ago, Matt585 said: Harry Lockett born 1900 I wonder if, with a 1900 birth, he perhaps only served late war and/or possibly post-war?? I wonder if any post-war records with MoD or TNA? [An exact DoB would help] Think we need the likes of @FROGSMILE to potentially date that jacket. M Edited 3 April by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casques of WW1 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April After looking at imw.org’s bit about the sp 1914 jacket, it looks as though this jacket could be the “simplified” 1914 aka SP 1914 jacket, if that helps any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) 33 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: I wonder if, with a 1900 birth, he perhaps only served late war and/or possibly post-war?? I wonder if any post-war records with MoD or TNA? [An exact DoB would help] Think we need the likes of @FROGSMILE to potentially date that jacket. M It’s a fairly standard SD jacket with general service buttons and the fixed shoulder straps that began to be fitted with shoulder titles circa 1907. The jacket remained in use until modified around 1922. 9 minutes ago, Casques of WW1 said: After looking at imw.org’s bit about the sp 1914 jacket, it looks as though this jacket could be the “simplified” 1914 aka SP 1914 jacket, if that helps any. No the ‘simplified emergency’ jacket had no shoulder patches and deeper breast pockets without expansion pleats. See enclosed image. Edited 3 April by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) 3 hours ago, Matt585 said: I have his history (Bertram Lockett), I’ve now come across a picture of his brother Harry Lockett born 1900 Hanley, in military uniform but cannot find anything about him, his dad was Thomas Lockett, mum Elizabeth Lockett, Hi @Matt585 and welcome to the forum That family as you say can be found on the 1911 Census of England & Wales at 27 Clive Street, Hanley, Stoke on Trent, although both Bertram, (15) and Harry, (10) are shown as born in Shelton, Stoke on Trent. Father Thomas and mother Elizabeth state they have been married 19 years. Unfortunately potentially three marriages of a Thomas Lockett to an Elizabeth in the Stoke on Trent area around 1892. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales, taken on the 31st March, Harry is recorded as 11 months old. That would place his birth as between the 1st April 1900 and the 30th April 1900 if that is correct - meaning his birth should be registered in Q2 1900. The only like birth in the Staffordshire area in that quarter was registered in the Stoke on Trent civil registration district, (which included Hanley and Shelton) and is for a Harry Lockett, no middle names, and gives his mothers maiden name as Clewes. A check for Bertram shows a birth registered in the Stoke on Trent District in Q3 1895 - mothers' maiden name Clewes. And going back to those three possible weddings, one of them is a Thomas Lockett to an Elizabeth Clewes recorded in the Stoke on Trent District in Q4 1892. Could all be a co-incidence but I assume that ties up with other evidence you have. In which case, assuming you no information to the contrary, it is unlikely he saw service in a Theatre of War. Normal scenario is he would have been conscripted in the month after his 18th birthday - so roughly April \ May 1918. He should not have been sent to a Theatre of War until he was 19. This was reduced slightly following the huge losses suffered by the British Army during the German Spring Offensive, but never by enough to have seen him on the boat to France. As the summer went on, (and US forces started arriving in significant numbers), the minimum age reverted to 19. So if he went overseas at all it wouldn't have been until the spring of 1919, and for that there was no medals, and so no Medal Index Card. It's unlikely, unless he enlisted for peace time soldiering or the Territorial Force, that he was till in the Army after 1920, and so unlikely there was anything retained by the Ministry of Defence. If he was single and had no claims to a medal or a pension then his records may have been weeded out of existance even before the German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they would have been stored. He would be too young to have appeared on the 1918 Absent Voters List, and he would only be potentially on the 1919 one only if he was still serving full time. Cheers, Peter Edited 3 April by PRC Typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April 3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s a fairly standard SD jacket with general service buttons and the fixed shoulder straps that began to be fitted with shoulder titles circa 1907. The jacket remained in use until modified around 1922. Thanks FS - a smartly turned out lad based on that collar. It's a shame we can't date the photo more closely. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casques of WW1 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April 7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s a fairly standard SD jacket with general service buttons and the fixed shoulder straps that began to be fitted with shoulder titles circa 1907. The jacket remained in use until modified around 1922. No the ‘simplified emergency’ jacket had no shoulder patches and deeper breast pockets without expansion pleats. Good catch sorry for the mishap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) 10 minutes ago, PRC said: That family as you say can be found on the 1911 Census of England & Wales at 27 Clive Street, Hanley, Stoke on Trent, although both Bertram, (15) and Harry, (10) are shown as born in Shelton, Stoke on Trent. Father Thomas and mother Elizabeth state they have been married 19 years. Unfortunately potentially three marriages of a Thomas Lockett to an Elizabeth in the Stoke on Trent area around 1892. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales, taken on the 31st March, Harry is recorded as 11 months old. That would place his birth as between the 1st April 1900 and the 30th April 1900 if that is correct - meaning his birth should be registered in Q2 1900. The only like birth in the Staffordshire area in that quarter was registered in the Stoke on Trent civil registration district, (which included Hanley and Shelton) and is for a Harry Lockett, no middle names, and gives his mothers maiden name as Clewes. A check for Bertram shows a birth registered in the Stoke on Trent District in Q3 1895 - mothers' maiden name Clewes. And going back to those three possible weddings, one of them is a Thomas Lockett to an Elizabeth Clewes recorded in the Stoke on Trent District in Q4 1892. Could all be a co-incidence but I assume that ties up with other evidence you have. In which case, assuming you no information to the contrary, it is unlikely he saw service in a Theatre of War. Normal scenario is he would have been conscripted in the month after his 18th birthday - so roughly April \ May 1918. He should not have been sent to a Theatre of War until he was 19. This was reduced slightly following the huge losses suffered by the British Army during the German Spring Offensive, but never by enough to have seen him on the boat to France. As the summer went on, (and US forces started arriving in significant numbers), the minimum age reverted to 19. So if he went overseas at all it wouldn't have been to the spring of 1919, and for that there was no medals, and so no Medal Index Card. It's likely, unless he enlisted for peace time soldiering orthe Territorial Force, that he was till in the Army after 1920, and so unlikely there was anything retained by the Ministry of Defence. If he was single and had no claims to a medal or a pension then his records may have been weeded out of existance even before the German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they would have been stored. He would be too young to have appeared on the 1918 Absent Voters List, and he would only be potentially on the 1919 one only if he was still serving full time. Thanks Peter for genealogically picking up where I commonly fear to tread [though sometimes venture at my sadly demonstrable peril!] - once again a thorough run through. Agreed, we may be rather scratching around for any evidence of late-war and/or post-war service - Nothing showing against any pension claim at WFA/Fold3 M Edited 3 April by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) 6 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Thanks FS - a smartly turned out lad based on that collar. It's a shame we can't date the photo more closely. M Yes there’s just no insignia so it leaves a very standard jacket. The influence to fit hooks and eyes to draw the collar together could come from long serving exampars of either a regular unit, or just a smart TF unit, and it isn’t really associated with any particular date. Edited 3 April by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt585 Posted 3 April Author Share Posted 3 April (edited) 55 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Thanks Peter for genealogically picking up where I commonly fear to tread [though sometimes venture at my sadly demonstrable peril!] - once again a thorough run through. Agreed, we may be rather scratching around for any evidence of late-war and/or post-war service - Nothing showing against any pension claim at WFA/Fold3 M 1 hour ago, PRC said: Hi @Matt585 and welcome to the forum That family as you say can be found on the 1911 Census of England & Wales at 27 Clive Street, Hanley, Stoke on Trent, although both Bertram, (15) and Harry, (10) are shown as born in Shelton, Stoke on Trent. Father Thomas and mother Elizabeth state they have been married 19 years. Unfortunately potentially three marriages of a Thomas Lockett to an Elizabeth in the Stoke on Trent area around 1892. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales, taken on the 31st March, Harry is recorded as 11 months old. That would place his birth as between the 1st April 1900 and the 30th April 1900 if that is correct - meaning his birth should be registered in Q2 1900. The only like birth in the Staffordshire area in that quarter was registered in the Stoke on Trent civil registration district, (which included Hanley and Shelton) and is for a Harry Lockett, no middle names, and gives his mothers maiden name as Clewes. A check for Bertram shows a birth registered in the Stoke on Trent District in Q3 1895 - mothers' maiden name Clewes. And going back to those three possible weddings, one of them is a Thomas Lockett to an Elizabeth Clewes recorded in the Stoke on Trent District in Q4 1892. Could all be a co-incidence but I assume that ties up with other evidence you have. In which case, assuming you no information to the contrary, it is unlikely he saw service in a Theatre of War. Normal scenario is he would have been conscripted in the month after his 18th birthday - so roughly April \ May 1918. He should not have been sent to a Theatre of War until he was 19. This was reduced slightly following the huge losses suffered by the British Army during the German Spring Offensive, but never by enough to have seen him on the boat to France. As the summer went on, (and US forces started arriving in significant numbers), the minimum age reverted to 19. So if he went overseas at all it wouldn't have been to the spring of 1919, and for that there was no medals, and so no Medal Index Card. It's likely, unless he enlisted for peace time soldiering orthe Territorial Force, that he was till in the Army after 1920, and so unlikely there was anything retained by the Ministry of Defence. If he was single and had no claims to a medal or a pension then his records may have been weeded out of existance even before the German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they would have been stored. He would be too young to have appeared on the 1918 Absent Voters List, and he would only be potentially on the 1919 one only if he was still serving full time. Cheers, Peter Thank you Peter, Elizabeth clewes & Thomas are his parents, thank you for helping solve this 🙏 Edited 3 April by Matt585 Misspelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April 1 hour ago, Matt585 said: Thank you Peter, Elizabeth clewes & Thomas are his parents, Apologies - I was trying to type and cook at the same time, so a few typos have slipped in there that may have changed the meaning of some of what I wrote - now corrected. I'm getting too old to start multi-tasking Hopefully the fundamental message came across. In the absense of any evidence at your end - medals, army paybook, discharge certificate, photographs, postcards & letters spring to mind or even just family legend, then the odds are that he didn't go overseas before the armistice. He may have gone after - a number of Young Soldiers Battalions were sent out to form part of the Army of Occupation in Germany, freeing up those who had seen combat to come home and be discharged to the Army Reserve. But if he was in a nationally important occupation that required his skills then he may simply have been released without ever venturing overseas. I don't subscribe to FindMyPast so can't see the details but they have a Harry Lockett, born Shelton, Staffordshire c1900 recorded on the 1921 Census of England & Wales in a household in the parish of Hanley. Other occupants include:- Elizabeth Lockett, born Hanley c1867 Thomas Lockett, born Shelton c1893 Bertram Lockett, born Shelton c1895 Winifred Lockett, born Shelton c1903 So unless Harry was home on leave on the night of the Census it would seem unlikely that he was still in the Army full time - if at all. While the fuller details of the 1921 Census return are available if you have the appropriate level of subscription, it can also be purchased as a one off. I was going to say if you don't already have his date of birth then it may be available on the 1939 Register if he was in England & Wales, (available via subscription on FindMyPast & Ancestry), or if he died after about 1969 in England & Wales then the civil death register information included the date of birth that was given to the registrar by the informant. That can be seen in FreeBMD, (up to about 1984) and familysearch, (up to about 2006) for free, although it should also be available via Ancestry \ FindMyPast and other genealogy subscription sites. I see familysearch (most likely) have him recorded as baptised at Shelton on the 30th May 1900 - parents Thomas & Elizabeth. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QL3P-4K9T The source they quote is "England, Staffordshire, Church Records, 1538-1944" which may also be available on some of the subscription services. However I see the death of a 28 year old Harry Lockett was recorded in Q4 of 1928 in the Stoke on Trent civil registration district - is that the same man or just a co-incidence? Couldn't spot anything in the probate calendar but not everyone who died had an estate to sort out. I took a look on the British Newspapers Archive, (as a non-subscriber) to see if I could spot anything that might relate to that death. Instead I found something else in 1920 that again may just be co-incidence. Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive - the software transcription of the words in the original article is as usual very flawed. As well as being able to see it on the British Newspapers Archive, the subscription level on FindMyPast that includes Newspapers will also give you access. I've no experience of accessing the Newspaper search facility on Ancestry. Apologies if any and all of that is the genealogy equivalent of teaching granny to suck eggs Good luck with your search, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April Following Peter's lead the Harry marrying Florence has a birth date in the 1939 register of 3rd May 1900 and Florence 27th March 1899. To confirm or disprove he is 'your' Harry George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April From an Ancestry tree-you may already have this photo of Bertram of course George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April Another tree in Ancestry suggests that the man we are looking for is named Harold Edward (Harry) Lockett but there is no evidence attached to the tree which confirms that-census, probate, birth index etc all say Harry. Dates Harold Edward (Harry) Lockett 1900–1965 BIRTH 3 MAY 1900 • 27 Clive Street, Hanley, Staffordshire, England DEATH 21 OCT 1965 • Staffordshire, England George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April (edited) 1 hour ago, George Rayner said: From an Ancestry tree-you may already have this photo of Bertram of course George There might be a facial likeness, but I’m unsure without seeing the two images side-by-side. This one shows a second lieutenant in the WW2 Home Guard wearing a 1937 pattern battle dress blouse with squeak and wilfred ribbons indicating WW1 service. Edited 4 April by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April I don't have anything for Harry but I have found other Locketts from Hanley. Charles. North Staffs. 10222 then MGC 9899. Died 9/4/17. Thomas. 1/5th North Staffs. 200025. Died 11/1/18. Earlier number 112. Apologies if you already have these details. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April 39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: WW2 Home Guard wearing a 1937 I'll have a dig around to see if there is anything to confirm any Home Guard details... George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt585 Posted 4 April Author Share Posted 4 April 44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: There might be a facial likeness, but I’m unsure without seeing the two images side-by-side. This one shows a second lieutenant in the WW2 Home Guard wearing a 1937 pattern battle dress blouse with squeak and wilfred ribbons indicating WW1 service. Hi yeah I have that picture that’s my great grandad Bertram he served in ww1 I haven’t found anything about him in ww2 but when my grandad died that picture was framed in a box in his attic, so thank you so much for that info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April (edited) On 04/04/2024 at 10:33, George Rayner said: I'll have a dig around to see if there is anything to confirm any Home Guard details... George I could just make out the first two letters on his shoulder title George. That plus his age and rank, combined with WW1 medal ribbons, is very typical of Home Guard. Coincidentally I’ve come across many similar instances in the past when gifted boxes of unwanted memorabilia left over from probate. In each case that I recall they were WW1 veteran ORs granted commissions at the junior officer level in the Home Guard. Edited 5 April by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: There might be a facial likeness, but I’m unsure without seeing the two images side-by-side. Like this No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 April Share Posted 4 April 37 minutes ago, PRC said: Like this No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner. Cheers, Peter Thanks Peter! I can certainly see what seems a family likeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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