Faughs museum Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April We are trying to assist a family - Daniel Cullen of Dungannon, NI. RSF 38151 on Medal Index Card & also 5459 Labour Corps but no intimation of original RSF Bn. 12 Labour Bn on fold3 10 Labour Coy on fmp Enlisted & discharged due to wounds all in 1917, seems to be either 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th or 6/7th, help/comment appreciated. ps question asked on BMF but nothing solid yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) Pension index card for disability claim at WFA/Fold3 under 12 Labour Bn, Royal Scots Fusiliers, 5459 M Edited 3 April by Matlock1418 correction of regiment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 3 April Admin Share Posted 3 April 5459 Labour Corps number is in the series (5401-6000) allocated to the 10th Company Labour Corps formed from the 2nd Infantry Labour Company Royal Scots Fusiliers in May 1917. Mobilised to RSF 14th February 1917 Near number sampling suggests joined BEF 4 March 1917 transferred to Labour Corps May 1917 as above Essentially he was posted to a works or Labour Battalion of the RSF either due to skills or medical category I note the Silver War Badge Roll stated the 10th Labour Company and the service record of 38177/5585 Justice indicates he was posted from the RSF to that Labour Company Conscription did not apply to Ireland, but if 'normally resident in the UK' he would have come within the terms of the military Service Act (as amended) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April 1 hour ago, Faughs museum said: RSF 38151 on Medal Index Card & also 5459 Labour Corps but no intimation of original RSF Bn. 12 Labour Bn on fold3 10 Labour Coy on fmp Hi @Faughs museum and welcome to the forum I'm sure others with better access will be along to help you, but a quick check of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows only two fatalities for Royal Scot Fusiliers with a service number in the range 38100 to 38199. Edit I see they have while I've been typing slowly! Of particular interest is 38132 Corporal G. Langton, 1st Labour Company, R.S.F. His secondary unit - which in this case is likely to be the unit he was serving with when he died on the 9th October 1918 in France was 10th Company, Labour Corps. His Labour corps service number was also a four digit one - 5601 - which I suspect is indicative of a likely transfer of a Regimental Battalion Labour Company into the Labour Corps on it's formation in March 1917. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/69818/g-langton/ Soldiers Died in the Great War shows George Oliver Langton as an ex Royal Fusiliers man with service number 3487. The other is 38195 Private Charles Robert Morrow shown originally as 10th Battalion R.S.F, but serving with the 10th Company, Labour Corps when he died in Belgium on the 22nd July 1917, service number 5693. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2938342/charles-robert-morrow/ Neither man has a surviving service record but a check of nearby service numbers following on from what Ken has done may turn up more details to flesh out the army career of your man. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faughs museum Posted 3 April Author Share Posted 3 April Many thanks to Matlock/Kenf & PRC for all the above. Two to three months in the RSF 'proper' pre Labour Corps I suppose safely means he didn't actually fight with an RSF Bn? I have read of some recruits having as little as one months training, not having fired their musketry course and officers having to load their rifles! For family then - Enlists Feb '17 38151 RSF (perhaps working in Scotland). By April 1917 5459 in Labour Corps (2 ILC Labour Corps*) from RSF Depot or unknown RSF Bn? * Which became 10 Coy LC Pension Card on fold3 gives 12th Labour Bn which later became 16th Labour Coy and served in Italy. A family story says possibly wounded at Passchendaele which could tie with WO Daily List 5332 8th Aug 1917 ref Wound Stripe. A complicated tale, further comment APPRECIATED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 3 April Admin Share Posted 3 April 1 minute ago, Faughs museum said: For family then - Enlists Feb '17 38151 RSF (perhaps working in Scotland). By April 1917 5459 in Labour Corps (2 ILC Labour Corps*) from RSF Depot or unknown RSF Bn? * Which became 10 Coy LC Found another on FMP probably in the pension records (ancestry) David Aitchison age 18 yrs 11 months on mobilisation 14th February 1917 (same as Cullen on the Silver War Badge Roll) deemed to have enlisted 2nd March 1916, i.e. aged 18 37998/5416 as above to BEF 4th March 1917 (aged nineteen) posted to 10th Labour Company on the 14th May 1917 (note on his medical form "will improve" in fact he didn't and was posted to the ASC Clerical Branch). None of the extant records for these men show any active service in a RSF Battalion in France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faughs museum Posted 3 April Author Share Posted 3 April Last comment a gem, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April As per the concurrent thread on the British Medal Forum, David Aitchison and his surviving service record are a good indicator as to the service of Daniel Cullen. Form B. 103 Enlisted 2 March 1916 Commences service on 14 February 1917 Embarks at Folkestone on 4 March 1917, disembarks same day at Boulogne. Transferred to Labour Corps on 14 May 1917. Transferred to Army Service Corps, S/329746, on 15 June 1917 It looks like the services of 2nd Infantry Labour Company, Royal Scots Fusiliers were needed immediately in a L of C capacity at Boulogne. Form B. 200 Enlisted 2 March 1916 Mobilised 14 February 1917 Corps: RSF Battn or Depot: Labour Date: 22 February 1917 Rank: Private Posted Corps: Labour Corps Battn or Depot: 10th Coy Date: 28 Apr 1917 Transferred ACI 611 of 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April Very useful information on the service numbers from LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/labour-companies-of-the-labour-corps/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April Daniel Cullen 38151 Royal Scots Fusiliers 5459 Labour Corps SWB roll - badge number 292104 - has 10 Labour Coy ex RSF He was awarded the SWB - enlisted 14/2/17 discharged 29/11/1917 age 30. His name appears in the War Office Daily Lists wounded 8 August Perhaps this injury led to his discharge in November 1917? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April 2 hours ago, Faughs museum said: A family story says possibly wounded at Passchendaele which could tie with WO Daily List 5332 8th Aug 1917 ref Wound Stripe. Usually a time lag of 4 to 10 weeks before the information was published. Judging on service numbers it doesn't look like anyone else from his unit was recorded as wounded in the same list. https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn30/1941/3963/194139639.30.jpg As the Labour Corps covered a large number of units even more than usual there is little reliable to be drawn from the other Labour Corps men in the same casualty list, so treat the following with extreme caution. Category Killed in Action. 80443 Acting Lance Corporal G. Carter, (next of kin Streatham, S.W.) - Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC) has him died 29th May 1917. Wife living Streatham. 43201 Company Serjeant Major C.E. Groves, (next of kin Collyhurst) - CWGC has him died 12th July 1917. 43203 Serjeant A.R. Rees, (next of kin Newport) - CWGC has him died 13th July 1917. Parents living Newport Monmouthshire. 43202 Company Quarter Master Serjeant G.D. Rowlands, (next of kin Ponthir) - CWGC has him died 13th July 1917. Category Died. 52485 Private G. Lowe, (next of kin Didsbury) - CWGC has him died 12th July 1917 at Le Havre. Wife living at Didsbury. Unfortunately as Line of Communication troops they weren't required to keep War Diaries and so as a consequence most, including 10 Company, didn't - or at least I can't find one in the National Archive catalogue. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faughs museum Posted 3 April Author Share Posted 3 April What useful information, thanks to Keith & PRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April Every day is a school day. I had no idea that there were three Labour Companies, of 600 men apiece, of the Royal Scots Fusiliers, and they were 3 out of 183 such formations. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/definitions-of-units/what-was-a-labour-company/ In WW2, I have come across Ordnance Stores Companies. These L of C troops are commanded by a Major, and the number of men are similarly closer in number to an infantry battalion, rather than an infantry company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April If we assume he was wounded around about the 12th July 1917, (big assumption), its unlikely the 10th Labour Company had a major relocation before the death of Private Morrow on the 22nd. Private Morrows' entry on Soldiers Died in the Great War simply shows him as "Died", (so anything other than Killed in Action or Died of Wounds (received in action)). If his death was as a result of accident or ill-health then obviously the events leading to his death might have started sometime before. But Private Morrow is buried in Locre Hospice Cemetery. The CWGC webpage for that Cemetery shows it located "10.5 Kms south-west of Ieper town centre on the Godtschalckstraat." And in the history of the Cemetery it adds "Locre (now Loker) was in Allied hands during the greater part of the war, and field ambulances were stationed in the Convent of St. Antoine. .....The Hospice Cemetery was begun in June 1917 by field ambulances and fighting units, and was used until April 1918." While some graves were subsequently brought in, there is nothing in the Graves Registration report to suggest Charles was in one of those. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/2023737/locre-hospice-cemetery/ From a quick check contemporary deaths in adjoining gaves to Private Morrow seem to be infantrymen and artillerymen of divisions involved in the defence of Mont Kemmel - like Locre, on the southern side of the Ypres salient and so away from the area where the coming campaign that was officially Third Ypres would occur. And looking a the very few deaths dated 11-13th July, one was serving with the 47th Division Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery. The 47th (London) Division History 1914-1919 by Alan Maude on page 106 refers to the Division being in X Corps, Second Army from their return to the salient in late June until August 16th. As a Labour Company unit was likely to be an Army or Corps asset, the records at that level may give some idea of what 10th Labour Company were up to. It is also possible that one of the Field Ambulances of the 47th Divison were located at Locre. While their war diaries are unlikely to mention names, (with a possible exception of deaths), it can give some idea of why men were being admitted. Those would have been the 4th London, 5th London and 6th London Field Ambulance. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faughs museum Posted 4 April Author Share Posted 4 April The GWF certainly have knowledgeable area experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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