Pte Henry Thomas Oliver - 8142 2nd London Regiment & 206702 RE - Seeking Help!

[Reidy]

Hello

I would dearly love to find out where my grandad served in France in WW1.  I have got his medal inscription but not sure how I can find this out?

It says on the medal:

8142 PTE.HT.OLIVER. 2-LOND-R

strangely his name was Thomas Henry Oliver but the medal says HT Oliver which is the other way around so not sure why.

All I know is that he was gassed in the trenches so I’ve been told.  He didn’t die in the war though.

Any guidance or help would be appreciated as I can’t seem to locate it on Ancestry but not that sure if I’m searching right! 

Thank you

Julie

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. His medal index card ©️ Ancestry is here

How to interpret here

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/

 

[Matlock1418]

From a pension index card at WFA/Fold3:

Henry Thomas OLIVER put in an unspecified disability pension claim on his discharge 21-2-19.

From the Royal Engineers, as 206702 [his former number of 8142 was also noted]

I see that handily matches what Michelle has just posted.

M

Edited 30 March by Matlock1418

[Michelle Young]

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14056030

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14056031

Here’s the war diaries. Free, after free registration. As the MIC shows , he enlisted in August 1916, unless his service records survive, I doubt there’s a conclusive way of finding out when he proceeded overseas, but not until 1917 at the earliest I’d say. 

[Matlock1418]

As Thomas Henry OLIVER under his RE number 206702 there is another PIC

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

8/3 pw from 22/2/19 to 9/3/19 represented the 30% drgree of disability rate for a pension Class V soldier / Pioneer under the 1918 Royal Warrant

DEAD indicates the claim was dead [and not necessarily the man]

M

Edited 30 March by Matlock1418
name

[Allan1892]

He was discharged due to sickness on the 21 February 1919 and issued with a Silver War badge (number B168061). His entry in the SWB Rolls shows that he enlisted on the 24th August 1916.

[Reidy]

Wow that was so fast!  Thank you so much for the info.  That is amazing.  I have no idea why he is listed as Henry Thomas Oliver when his name was Thomas Henry Oliver.  

Is there any way of working out from his regiment where he served overseas.  I dearly wanted to visit that area. 
Really appreciate your help. I’m new to all this but finding it very interesting.

all the best 

Julie 

 

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

He was transferred to the Royal Engineers Special Brigade which was responsible for much of Britain's chemical warfare effort. He was discharged from the Special Brigade Home Depot at Devonport, 21.2.19

TR

[AndrewSid]

So we know he enlisted on 24 Aug 1916 from his SWB roll.  Usually a period of 3 months Infantry training would have followed noting that time in training could be longer and occasioanlly shorter.  The 1/2nd Battalion the London Regiment had been in France since Jan 1915 (see link below) 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

Looking at nearby serviced records it seems  he  was transferred to the Royal Engineers whilst in France on the 2nd December 1916.  Twenty other men from his Battalion were equally transferred on the same day.  At least two had been with the Battalion overseas for some time. His time with the London Regiment in France was therefore short and its possible he never actually served with them in France and never actually made it out of the depot in France to the 1/2 London Regiment.

Elements of the service  record of Ernest Sibley 206704 RE and 6806 1/2 London Regt survive.  They show he was transferred  to the RE on the 2nd Dec 1916 in France and that he deployed from Southampton to France overnight of the the 23rd/24th of November 1916. A screenshot of his relevant page is below courtesy of FMP. It’s hard to make out where he went noting by May 1917 he was with “Z Special Company”.  Oliver may have taken a different route of course.  

 

 

[Reidy]

Wow that was so fast!  Thank you so much for the info.  That is amazing.  I have no idea why he is listed as Henry Thomas Oliver when his name was Thomas Henry Oliver.  

Is there any way of working out from his regiment where he served overseas.  I dearly wanted to visit that area. 
Really appreciate your help. I’m new to all this but finding it very interesting.

all the best 

Julie 

 

 

 

[Reidy]

Andrew and Terry

Thank you so much for taking the time to look into this, it means so much to me.  

I was told he was in the trenches but I’ll probably never get to know that much detail as to where in France.  I’m so grateful for this extra info so thank you.

Is there any guesses as to where his regiment were stationed in France even if no knowing he was there too?

Sorry for so many questions!  I’ve always wanted to get to the bottom of this as much as I could but a but if a novice when it comes to searches!!!

Happy Easter

Julie

 

 

[AndrewSid]

Julie,

The problem we have is that his service record does not survive so we are piecing together what we have from the little information that exists.  Looking at men near him it seems he was posted to the RE Special Brigade and likely went to a unit which we are not aware of.  Im afraid I know little of the Special Brigade.  The record of Sibley may help a little but the chances of them taking the same path after posting-in decreases over time.  Terry has  studied these RE  men for some time and may be able to shed light on where these men were trained and then dispersed?

They were not a large organisation but did have numerous units.  Looks like Thomas was transferred as part of the move to expand the unit into the Special Brigade in Jan 1916.  In the Army at that stage moving units as per the needs of the service was common.   See link:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/special-battalions-and-companies-of-the-royal-engineers/

Although we cannot be certain it’s likely that the group of men posted in from the 1/2 London Regiment were together for a period upon transfer.  It shows that Sibley was initially at 4 GBD or No 4 General Base Depot.  The link below tells us this was in Rouen.  He likely then moved to one of the five new Battalions.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/other-aspects-of-order-of-battle/british-base-depots-in-france-1914-1918/

Edited 6 April by AndrewSid

[Terry_Reeves]

1 hour ago, Reidy said:

Andrew and Terry

Thank you so much for taking the time to look into this, it means so much to me.  

I was told he was in the trenches but I’ll probably never get to know that much detail as to where in France.  I’m so grateful for this extra info so thank you.

Is there any guesses as to where his regiment were stationed in France even if no knowing he was there too?

Sorry for so many questions!  I’ve always wanted to get to the bottom of this as much as I could but a but if a novice when it comes to searches!!!

Happy Easter

Julie

 

 

On disembarkation he would have been sent to 4 General Base Depot at Rouen, which was specifically for Royal Engineers. He would have the been sent to Depot Special Brigade which had its HQ in the town hall and school at Helfaut some 4 miles south of St Omer. The men were billeted in the surrounding villages. He would the have proceeded from there to his unit.

I have a small number of men in my database with near numbers, their units being extracted from the unit  war diaries, but they are spread across the brigade.

TR

Edited 31 March by Terry_Reeves

[Reidy]

On 30/03/2024 at 18:25, Allan1892 said:

He was discharged due to sickness on the 21 February 1919 and issued with a Silver War badge (number B168061). His entry in the SWB Rolls shows that he enlisted on the 24th August 1916.

Might be a silly question(!) but if the war ended in 1918, how come my grandad was discharged in 1919?  Any thoughts or help about this would be appreciated.  Thank you, Julie 

[Michelle Young]

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/demobilisation-and-discharge/
 

This might help. 

[Matlock1418]

16 minutes ago, Reidy said:

if the war ended in 1918, how come my grandad was discharged in 1919?

You might be interested to look out the following book:

"The Soldiers' Peace" by Michael Senior [Pen & Sword Military (17 Oct. 2018)]

M

[Allan1892]

1 hour ago, Reidy said:

Might be a silly question(!) but if the war ended in 1918, how come my grandad was discharged in 1919?  Any thoughts or help about this would be appreciated.  Thank you, Julie 

I think that Michelle has pointed you in the right direction for reasons.

[Reidy]

Thank you all, I read the link.  Hadn’t thought about the logistics of everyone getting back when the war ended so can get it now!

I will get that book too.

Thank you

Julie 

[Reidy]

Good evening,

Sorry to ask more questions about my grandad and his regiment in France.  I have been given these pictures of my grandad Thomas Oliver by a relative and they were asking about the sheepskin uniform.  Was this the regular uniform for the London Regiment?  Also I have another photo with the image of the regiment on his hat.  Just wondered if these add anything to my quest for info on him actually serving in France!  Thank you 

Julie 

[Michelle Young]

He’s badged to the RE in the seated photo. The jerkins are not a unique issue. I think they were goatskin, and rather smelly. @FROGSMILEshould be able to assist more. 

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

He’s badged to the RE in the seated photo. The jerkins are not a unique issue. I think they were goatskin, and rather smelly. @FROGSMILEshould be able to assist more. 

Yes they are clearly goatskin and if I recall correctly issued as a solution to winter insulation after the BEF suffered from a very cold Christmas over 1914.  From memory only then I think that they were widely seen over the following year’s 1915 winter, but a simple in-forum search for “goatskin jerkin” should bring up lots of detailed information and further images.  They were issued to all troops in the trenches I believe.

Edited 6 April by FROGSMILE

[Reidy]

Thanks both, I had not seen this item before on soldiers so now I know!

Thanks for also confirming the badge as being the RE.

Your knowledge is amazing.